Episode 175: Hoyas and more with Ellen Zachos

Hoya caudata. Photograph: Ellen Zachos.

Transcript

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Jane: Hello, it's On The Ledge podcast and I'm your host Jane Perrone, which rhymes with funny old crone, not a joke, just a fact! In this week's show, I'm talking to fellow podcaster, houseplant enthusiast and garden writer, Ellen Zachos, about Hoyas, plant tattoos and the future of houseplants. Plus, I answer a question about what plants to place next to a heater. Yes, that one's a good challenge!

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Jane: How are you all doing? I do hope you're okay. I'm so tired my eyes are like burn holes in a blanket, as my mother would say, so, I'm hoping for a restful weekend, a bit of repotting perhaps and blasting the aphids off my Oxalis triangularis! I'd like to thank Taylor aka UCD..., I think that's right, hang on, I'm going to put my glasses on, that would help, yes, UCDPlantDoc aka Taylor - thank you for your five-star review, the line of which that jumped out at me was the one: "Strap yourself in and prepare to have your glabrous hairs blown back!". Well that sounds like the catch line to my forthcoming - I'm being ironic here - action movie, featuring me and a load of houseplants.

Thank you also to Carrow, Rachel and Erin, who all became Ledge-ends, and to Yehua who became a Crazy Plant Person. I am getting perilously close to 300 Patreons now and I've decided that when I hit that 300 Patreon target, Patreons at all levels from Crazy Plant Person right up to Super Fan, I'm going to do a Patreons-only Zoom, so now is a good time to join and then you can join me for that Zoom which will consist of me doing a bit of a talk, show-and-tell type thing and then some time for questions. So, back me now, it could only cost you a few pennies a month if you become a Crazy Plant Person and you get to take part in that fantastic opportunity to hang out with me and other fans of the show!

Thank you to all of you who've been sending in your Meet the Listener answers and there's still plenty of opportunities to take part, so do drop a line to ontheledgepodcast@gmail.com and Kelly, my wonderful assistant, will send you instructions on what you need to do. All you need is a smartphone. It's as simple as that!

Remember that I'm after your questions on orchid rescue, so if you've got a tricksy orchid problem, tell me about it and I will enlist the help of The Black Thumb, aka Terry Richardson, to help answer that question in an upcoming show. Right that's the preamble out the way, now it's time to talk to this week's guest, Ellen Zachos, and I make no apologies for the fact that, yet again on the show, I'm going on about Hoyas! Here we go.

Ellen: My name is Ellen Zachos and mostly what I speak and write about these days is wild edible plants, but I came to plants and gardening via Hoyas and houseplants because I lived in a tiny New York City apartment. I had no garden of my own and I was a beginner gardener and Hoyas were the perfect houseplant. It took no talent whatsoever to grow them, at least the beginning ones, and as I fell in love with them and grew more and more I think I came to be growing about 200 different species at one time.

Jane: Wow! Well there are many reasons why I asked you to be a guest on On The Ledge, Ellen, and the Hoyas were just one of them, but they were a major part because we share a mutual admiration for these plants, they are fantastic, and we'll get into a bit of that as we go. You are the co-host of a wonderful plant podcast, a gardening podcast I should say, or I don't know how you describe it because, actually, it's a bit wider than gardening: Plantrama. Can you tell us a bit about Plantrama?

Ellen: Plantrama is a podcast that I do with C.L. Fornari who is a long-time friend and colleague at GardenComm, which is the American Association for Garden Communicators, well, it's actually Garden Communicators International. We do a podcast and we don't call it a garden podcast, although there's a lot of gardening in there. We do call it a plant podcast because a lot of people these days consider themselves plant people as opposed to garden people. I don't care what you call yourself, if you love plants then you're my people and that's all that's important to me, but we do say it's a podcast for anybody who has ever grown, eaten or wondered about a plant.

Jane: Well, that is really all of us, isn't it, which is a great audience segment!?

Ellen: Yes!

Jane: I love that idea of taking down this false wall between food and gardening because, and this is perpetuated by the media because you get cooking shows and you get gardening shows and in magazines and newspapers you get gardening sections and cooking sections, and rarely do they interact in a way that's useful. Whereas, in fact, if you've ever tried to grow or forage anything, you want to know how to harvest it, what to do with it, how to store it etc.

Ellen: Yes, the two subjects are intimately entwined. You really can't have one without the other unless you are so divorced from your food source that all you do is just go to the market and pick up something in plastic. Anybody who has ever grown or foraged for something knows how important it is to understand how that plant grows, as well as how you can eat it.

Jane: How long has Plantrama been going? I think it's at least a couple of years? I'm probably completely wrong and underestimating that?

Ellen: No no, we we're in our fifth year now! We actually started it in February 2017 to 18, 19, 20, 21, yes, so we are officially in our fifth year, just beginning our fifth year.

Jane: I must have started On The Ledge almost exactly the same time because my first episode of On The Ledge was the 28th February 2017!

Ellen: Wow!

Jane: So, obviously, we had this mutually great idea of podcasting!

Ellen: A cosmic link!

Jane: In every episode, often houseplants do come up and Hoyas are obviously one of your favourites. What I love about the show is the fact that you and C.L. don't always agree. Does C.L. like Hoyas as much as you do? I can't remember from the Hoya episode you did?

Ellen: No, I don't think she has a single... I'm trying to think back... because of Covid... we usually get together in person several times a year. We live 2,000 miles apart but my family lives close to where she lives, so I was able to visit her in the past and I'm trying to think now... I don't think she has a single Hoya in her garden! I maybe will have to bring her a cutting or two to fix that! Certainly, in the wintertime, we focus a lot on houseplants in our episodes and in the summer we do more with the outdoor garden. We try and keep it seasonal.

Jane: One of the lovely things about speaking to you is that, like me, I don't think it's rude for me to say that neither of us is probably in the millennial category.

Ellen: You look substantially younger than I do, Jane, but I can safely say that I am definitely not in the millennial category!

Jane: I think it's just probably good lighting! How do you feel about the rise of the houseplant in popularity probably since our podcasts began? It's been exponential! Has it been good for the industry as a whole?

Ellen: I think a lot of things have happened. First of all, I'm thrilled that houseplants are getting so popular. I have never understood why they weren't popular. I have never understood why somebody would want to have a house without a houseplant. In my house, which is a small house, it doesn't have great light, there are plants in every single room because I think that's essential to having a house feel like a home. It's always surprised me that there have been so many outdoor gardeners who are not interested in houseplants. I don't get that at all. I think houseplants have been rising in popularity for the last couple of years, which is great, and also with Covid, outdoor gardening has risen in popularity a lot and I'm just hoping that, if and when the world gets back to normal, that that interest in growing things both indoors and out stays with us because I think it's a wonderful hobby. I think it lets you nurture things. I just think there's nothing bad to be said about it.

Jane: Amen. I need to go deeper on Hoyas though! I'm sitting here in my office and I've got probably, oh, a dozen Hoyavarieties around me in various places! I think that my prediction for the coming year or so is that Hoyas are going to be the next fever plant, at a ratio that the Aroids went crazy. I think Hoyas are beginning to go that way.

Ellen: I wouldn't be surprised, yes.

Jane: I'm glad that I picked up quite a few Hoyas through swaps and things in the last couple of years because things that I've got, I'm now looking at the price of and going, "I just wouldn't spend that much money on anything!" just because I'm a thrifty person and I don't drop three figures on a houseplant. What is it about Hoyas that you think has caught people's imagination? Is it just that they're just so darn easy?

Ellen: I think it's a combination of things because there are some Hoyas that are a little more temperamental, but there are tons that are very easy, but they're all so beautiful and they're all so versatile. You could grow them in hanging baskets; you can plant them and grow them upright by twining them around a tutor, or some kind of bamboo poles; they're variegated; they're solid green,; the flowers are incredibly fragrant; the leaves can be the size of your baby fingernail or they can be the size of your foot; the flowers can be different colours even though they're mainly in the white and pink family. I think they have a lot to recommend them. They're also very flexible, as far as what their lighting needs are. If you want to get really good bloom, most of them need fairly decent light but if you're content to just have a very attractive, low maintenance foliage plant, then they'll survive in light that is far from optimum. So I think there's a lot of reasons that people love Hoyas and I would be thrilled to see them become the next Monstera, or the next something else. I think they deserve their time in the spotlight.

Jane: I agree. They are amazing and one of the things I love about them, I guess like the Aroids, is that they're just so easy to propagate and so you can do these wonderful swaps, as I've done over the years with fellow growers and end up with these lovely varieties that otherwise you probably wouldn't have been able to afford. You learn a lot through those cuttings, don't you, and raising those particular cuttings?

Ellen: You do and you feel this sense of accomplishment. I remember, when I was just getting started with houseplants, the first time I rooted a cutting I thought I was insanely talented, "Oh my gosh! Look what I just did! I made this happen!" and, of course, now I realise it had very little to do with me and everything to do with the plant. Being able to propagate something easily, and Hoyas are exceptionally easy to propagate, just makes you feel like you're contributing to the cycle of life somehow.

Jane: Yes, exactly. What's your preferred method? Do you just stick them in a glass of water, or do you go for one of these more ... I keep seeing on Instagram, these people with these elaborate prop boxes! I literally have a tupperware box with some damp Leca and they get thrown in there or they get thrown in a glass of water!

Ellen: Wait, with what? Damp Leca?

Jane: Expanded clay pebbles, Leca.

Ellen: I've never heard of that before, maybe we call it something different here, I don't know? But interesting.

Jane: I first used them when I had my green roof installed, which is above me right now, and that is used as the substrate for that because it's just very, very lightweight. They're made of clay but it's like clay that's, like popcorn, been sort of puffed. I don't know how they do it but it's very lightweight and very porous, so it's useful for all kinds of houseplant uses because if you're looking for adding air to the soil it's fantastic. People also use it for propagating, so I've got a big bin of it in my shed which I use for all different kinds of things.

Ellen: For something like an Epiphyte, a Hoya that really likes to have that good air contact with the root system, that sounds perfect.

Jane: Yes, it is really, really useful and I think it's becoming really popular with houseplant growers here, maybe slightly different in the US, I'm not sure? That's just the laziest way of propagating ever because I open the box about once a month and go, "Ooh, what's happening?" and often there's a load of roots.

Ellen: I don't use that way to propagate but I do use something that's pretty simple. Basically, you know how when you look at the vine of the H**oya you see all those little nubbles that are just waiting to become roots? So when I take a cutting, I will probably let it callous for a day and then I'll get a paper towel wet and squeeze out the water, wrap it around the bottom of the cutting where those bumpy bits are and then I put that in a zip lock bag inflate it, blow it up with warm air, seal it and it keeps it moist. Usually within about two or three weeks roots have started to grow through the paper towel and then I just take it out and pot it up.

Jane: The genius part of that is blowing it up because I've never thought of doing that but actually that's a really good idea because then it means that the cutting is cushioned?

Ellen: Exactly, and warm and moist, and you can check it every week to see if you need to put in a little more water but usually you don't and you can also watch it and it's just a little baggy. So if you need to keep it warm on the top of your refrigerator, which is often the warmest part of the house, it's easy to do.

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Jane: I do hope you enjoyed that chat, I'll be back with more chat with Ellen in a little while, but first, it's time for Question of the Week. This one comes from Rachel, who discovered On The Ledge three weeks ago and has had a mammoth binge and is all caught up! Can that really mean you've listened to 174 episodes, Rachel? Wow! I'm not sure whether to be impressed or horrified, but thank you very much! Rachel's question relates to her windowsills, if I may call them ledges, and an issue that she has with two window ledges that face west, a very good aspect for houseplants - that afternoon sun is lovely but there's an issue because they both, annoyingly, have panel heaters below them and Rachel's wondering if there's anything that can be grown above the inferno: "Anything I can hang a bit higher? Any ways to adapt the window ledges?" She's worried about that hot air. I don't know exactly what a panel heater is, I think it's probably what I've got here in the office, which is just one of those hot air convection heaters that runs off the electric. Is that right? You may occasionally hear a click when I'm recording and that's usually because that's kicked in, although it's quite cool in here, normally for the benefit of my cacti -- yes, that's what I do for my plants! That's on the other side of the room though, fortunately, away from my plants, so that's not an issue for me, but clearly it's an issue for Rachel. So what can she do?

I think that you could get away with snake plants. Snake plants are very, very tough and they can deal with hot blasts of heat. If they're getting a lot of sun it shouldn't cause too much of a problem. I think you can buy these, certainly in the UK, is buy some fittings that fit over the top of your panel heater and direct the hot air... stop it from going straight up and send it into the room, that might be worth looking at, provided you get something that's obviously safe and fits properly onto the heater to redirect those blasts of hot air into the room which is where you need it, to be honest, rather than at the plants directly. If you are going to have plants on there, snake plants, I think, would be a good choice. They are just so tough. Do keep an eye on them and if you've got any plants that seem to be affected, then you might want to have a programme of switching plants in and out of that window, to deal with it.

The other thing you can do, obviously as you've said, is have plants hanging higher up, which will probably be less affected by that hot air. There are different systems you can use to hang plants. Sometimes people install curtain rails inside the window - depends exactly what configuration of window you've got. You can also get those telescopic shower rails that people use to hang plants from. I'm always very wary because I have been there when these things have collapsed and yes, it's not pretty, so make sure that it's very securely attached, whatever you are going to use, because plants in pots are heavy, especially when they are full of water.

Things like Hoyas would probably be fine in those hangers because, again, they are tough, tough, tough and they won't mind cold draughts if there's cold draughts higher up in the window but they'll also be able to cope with the heat. That would be my recommendation. West-facing window, maybe something like Hoya Kerrii, if you can get hold of one, or classic Hoya carnosa can deal with all kinds of different conditions. The other thing you can do, is you can buy little shelves that will lift the plants up in the windowsill, so they're not sitting right above the hot air. They're usually designed for other things other than plants for kitchen storage and things but you can buy those which will lift the plants up just a few centimetres just to get them out of that heat zone. They are worth looking at as well, if you can find something that you're aesthetically happy with.

It's also worth saying that if you are the kind of person that rings the changes on what's on your windowsills between the seasons, and it's a good idea to be that person because conditions do really vary throughout the year, so something that's happy there in the winter may well not be happy there with the level of light in the summer and may get frazzled, then you've got more variety, really, then you could have, in the summertime, you could use that west-facing window for some of the succulents that like a little bit less of the direct sun than others, like the Gasterias and the Haworthias. While I wouldn't necessarily advise on keeping those there in the winter, when they prefer to be kept cooler, they could be happy there when the heating is off in the warmer temperatures of late spring, summer, early autumn. Then in the winter you could either move your snake plants there, or have the windowsill bare just for those months where your heating is on. It depends how much you're using that heater, what temperature your thermostat is set on. There are so many different factors.

If you want a plant that you could stick there just year 'round, as I say, snake plants I always think that a tableau of lots of different types of Snake Plants, either matchy-matchy, or very different styles of pots and colours of pots, looks amazing. It's probably me being biased because I have that very display myself. You could also have something architectural, like a ZZ Plant Zamioculcas zamiifolia; very tough, not going to be bothered by the heat from the panel heater and will sit there and look great all year round. Well, I hope that's helpful, Rachel. If you've got any other comments on that, listeners, that you'd like me to pass on to Rachel, do let me know. If you've got a question drop me a line to ontheledgepodcast@gmail.com I can't answer every single question I'm sent - time is not in my favour in that regard - but I will do my very best to answer as many as I can, or direct you to another resource. If I don't answer your question, do join the Facebook group Houseplant Fans of On The Ledge because there are so many expert listeners there who are able to help with your queries.

Right, it's time to get back to my chat with Ellen and there's something we need to talk about...

Jane: I need to hear about this tattoo.

Ellen: The tattoo began very modestly. I have a huge collection of houseplant books - huge! Some of my favourites are the ones from the 30s and 40s that are just illustrated very simply with black and white line drawings. So there was one that had a picture of just three delicate little Hoya leaves and an umble of flowers in black and white. I brought that into a tattoo artist and had him put it on my ankle. Then I thought, "Well, this is a vining plant. Maybe the vine should grow a little bit!" so we extended it in both directions and started to fill it in with colour and it goes now from my big toe on my right foot all the way up to my hip. I've thought about extending it up and having it come down my shoulder to my wrist but I haven't done anything about that lately. I love it! I just think when I see it in the mirror it reminds me of my favourite plant and it makes me happy and also, if I'm ever killed in a horrific accident, it'll be very easy to identify my body!

Jane: Very true! I speak as somebody who doesn't even have their ears pierced. I'm not a fan of pain. I don't think I could cope with tattooing pain and I doubt I'm ever going to get a tattoo but if I was going to get a tattoo, Hoya would be right up there, top of the list, as a possible subject!

Ellen: It's definitely painful, I'm not going to lie to you! I wrote my first poem when I was nine years old and it was about the trauma of getting a shot at the doctors. It was not an easy decision for me either, but the pain is over and the tattoo is here to stay, so I'm glad I did it!

Jane: I can only imagine, as somebody with two children, that it's like child birth, that you know it's horrendous but once it's over, you quickly forget and you want to have another one! So tell me a bit about your fave Hoyas. Are there particular ones that really excite you?

Ellen: Yes, there are, for many different reasons. I've got to say usually I choose my Hoya based on foliage rather than flower. I love the flowers, don't get me wrong, but the foliage is with you all year 'round. One of my very favourites is Hoya caudata. I don't know if you know that one?

Jane: Yes, I do.

Ellen: I love the texture. Most Hoyas have a glossy, smooth surface to them but the Hoya caudata has that rough, almost bumpy, surface and the variegation is highly irregular with the silvery white and the reddishness to it, if it gets into high light. It's a medium-sized leaf, I would say, three to four inches long, with a very pointy tip and the leaves are loosely spaced around the vine. I love the growth habit of that one and I think the foliage is gorgeous and, I will say, the flowers are also beautiful, very, very deep red in the centre and hairy and ciliate. If I could only grow one, and I'm glad I don't have to make that choice, I think Hoya caudata would be probably be my first choice.

Jane: I have that as a small cutting, so it hasn't yet flowered, but I agree the leaves are stunning. The overall effect is gorgeous and I can understand why that's becoming a very, very popular Hoya. Any others? What's in the top three?

Ellen: I think next would be Hoya vitellina, do you know that one? That one has large leaves, they can be six to eight inches long, sort of a palish medium green and wavy margins. When you get it in higher light, or even a west-facing window, the margins take on this sort of reddish, purple colour, so it looks like each leaf is outlined. The flowers of that one are a much more subtle blend. It's a white with a very pale pink corolla, but also beautiful, very fragrant. I just find the leaf shape and the size of that one - it does have a shiny surface, it's a waxier-looking leaf - just gorgeous, gorgeous! I highly recommend that one.

Jane: That's not one I have. I know that these sun-stressed Hoyas, as they call them, are very 'in' now, aren't they? On Instagram, I'm constantly seeing sun-blushed Hoyas as being the thing to go for. I think the only trouble with that is it sometimes gives people a false expectation of what their plant is going to look like when it arrives.

Ellen: Yes and some of them, like Hoya merrillii, there's a bunch of them that will get really, really intense red variegation when they are in high sunlight and I would say Hoya vitellina is not like that. Hoya vitellina keeps its outline along the leaf margin all the time, but it'll become a little bit darker. It doesn't need to be in outdoor full sun, it'll do that even in a western window. But you're right, I think when people see photos of these very dramatic red leaves, if they get their cutting and it doesn't look like that, they're bound to be disappointed. So, whoever's selling them needs to manage the expectations, I think.

Jane: Indeed and have we got one more to add to this top three?

Ellen: We have like ten more...

Jane: It's like choosing children, or choosing best friends! It's like, 'Who do you pick!?'

Ellen: Yes, it's very difficult. I'm going to go with one that's very different. I really love Hoya curtisii. Do you grow that one?

Jane: Yes, I find that really hard.

Ellen: It's a tricky one, but I'll tell you what worked for me and why I think it works. First of all, it's a miniature, so it's the opposite of Hoya vitellina. The leaves are tiny, they're sort of spade-shaped and they're very generously speckled with this silver-white variegation. I think it needs cooler temperatures at night to be happy and, where I used to live in Pennsylvania, we had these large bay windows and it was a cold place and if I kept my Hoyas that needed that nighttime temperature drop in those windows, it just miraculously gave them exactly what they needed. If you can't give them that temperature drop, then curtisii and a couple of the other ones like Hoya retusa, Hoya Bella, those really need the cooler temperatures at night.

Jane: Well mine is here in the office, which does get cool at night. I mean it's okay, it was just a very tiny cutting that I was given and it's just so slow and you're just looking at it going, "Come on!" but then I've had Hoyas like that before, where I've had a single leaf and then they've suddenly exploded into life and really started to grow fast. So, I think hopefully it's just a question of getting established, getting a really good root network established and then it will go. We'll see! You're right, there are so many to choose from, if somebody's listening to this thinking, "Oh, wow!", as often happens, I'm sure it's the same with your podcast, people listen and then realise they need to add to their wish list! Is there a particular Hoya, is it the classic Hoya carnosa, that beginners should be going for?

Ellen: I think the Hoya carnosa is a good one because it's so readily available, but I would suggest starting with Hoya publicalyx instead. It's also almost as readily available as Hoya carnosa and I love it. I just think it's a more beautiful leaf, the green with the flecks of silver or pink, and I think the flower is more beautifully fragrant. I feel like the growth habit on that one is more attractive, it's very elegant. I don't know, it's one of the first ones that I ever grew and it's still one of my favourites, I think, for both foliage and flower and for ease of growth. The nice thing is, about Hoya publicalyx and Hoya carnosa, they can both take it down pretty cold if you have a draughty window. So even in the wintertime, I don't know how cold it gets where you are, but we get below zero here and if a Hoya carnosa or a Hoya publicalyx is in a window that gets down to 45 or 50 degrees, it's going to be totally fine. So I think those are both good ones to start with, especially for someone who is beginning with Hoyas, but Hoya publicalyx would be my first choice and it's pretty easy to find in the market.

Jane: Yes, I think that's a great recommendation.

Ellen: What was your first Hoya? I'm just wondering what got you hooked?

Jane: Hoya carnosa Crimson Princess was my first one, years ago, and I've still got the plant. I nearly lost it because I allowed a big stem that was completely white to grow and this was before I realized, and then I remember I had Doug Chamberlain, the Vermont Hoyas guy, on the podcast and, this was a few years after it happened, "Is this why my Hoyanearly died?" and he's like, "Probably!" and I managed to save two cuttings of it and it's fine now, it's romping back up and that's what's so brilliant about them. I always say to people, "If your plant is looking a bit dodgy, do take some cuttings because this could be your little escape ship!"

Ellen: Patch, yes!

Jane: So, that was my first one, which I've had for many years and it's still going strong, thankfully, after recovering from that, and then I got a massive motherload of cuttings from a guy in Scandinavia a few years ago, Tommy Tonsberg, who's been on the show also, who was coming over to Chelsea back in the days when we could do things. He was helping at a Chelsea stand. My favourite of those, and I haven't actually totally confirmed the identity of this one, but I would say it's probably Hoya villosa. I don't know if you've grown Hoya villosa? It is a beast!

Ellen: I don't think I have grown Hoya villosa. I've seen it and it's beautiful but I have not grown it.

Jane: Well, the other identification that I've potentially made is it also looks like a cultivar called Welsh Mountain Zoo, which is a very obscure name but anyway, whatever this Hoya is, it is a complete beast and you're right about the differences between different Hoyas, some of them are like these tiny, wiry stems, this one is meaty! It's really substantial and it just romps away.

Ellen: Is it thick stems like Hoya kerrii, the heart-shaped leaf one?

Jane: They're very softly furry. They're just covered in these soft hairs and it gives you a vibe of... I can't really describe it, I just call it the beast because it is just so... and people always want cuttings of it and I'm always taking cuttings. So it's still relatively small and the leaves have got that amazing venetian that you get on some Hoyas, where you've got paler areas.

Ellen: Yes, now I know I want that one!

Jane: Yes, sorry I can't send you a cutting but it's a lovely Hoya and I don't think it's a big flowerer. It hasn't flowered for me and I don't think it flowers very readily but it's great. It's really, really lovely. I just love those plants that are just so vibrant and full of vitality and they're just going for it - it's exciting! - as opposed to the ones where you're, like, "Please stay alive!" and they're so fragile. One thing that I'm doing on the show, and I do every Spring, is a sowalong, where I'm encouraging listeners to sow houseplants from seed and one of the things I'm actually doing this year is growing Hoya serpens from seed.

Ellen: Wow!

Jane: It was sent to me by a listener, but the trouble with Hoyas is, of course, that you have to sow the seed incredibly fresh, but have you ever tried sowing any houseplants from seed? Is that something you've got into?

Ellen: No, I never have and I know, especially with Hoyas and with everything in, you know, all of the Asclepiads, the seeds are not viable for very long, so you really do have to sow them quickly. I have never been a seed grower for several reasons. First of all, in my tiny little New York apartment, there was no room for sowing from seeds. It was one room, it was 400 square feet with a husband and two cats and so there was no seed-sowing going on. When we bought a house in Pennsylvania, we were only there on the weekends and it was very difficult to take care of your seeds if you were away for five to seven days at a time, so there was that. Maybe you could also say that I'm just too lazy to grow from seed. I'm not a lazy person in general but it's just not something I've ever done a lot of. I would be very interested though in hearing if... you said Hoya serpens you're growing from seed?

Jane: Yes, they're doing really well and I was really panicking because the lovely, lovely listener that sent them to me, who has sent me plants in the past, she said, "Do sow them fresh," and she sent them to me at Christmas and inevitably, partly because of home-schooling at the moment and all kinds of things that are getting in the way of work, I hadn't sowed them and I felt terrible. I left them for about two or three weeks and she said: "How are the seeds getting on?" I was like: "Ah, I haven't sown them yet!" Anyway, they did germinate very nicely and I've got about 15 tiny little seedlings, so that's really exciting.

Ellen: That's exciting! That's so exciting!

Jane: Yes, and that's the thrill I get from growing from seed. I think, as I get older, I've learned that I tend to have this habit of sowing a lot of things and going mad and then realising I just can't maintain it all. I always used to do this with tomatoes, just growing fifteen varieties of tomatoes and then realising I haven't got enough room to keep these somewhere until they can go outside at the end of May, so yes it's a challenge. I wanted to talk a little bit more about what the houseplant culture is like where you are in New Mexico, is the climate such that you're chucking a lot of your houseplants outside come summer, or is it too sunny?

Ellen: Both actually. I do put my plants outside every summer, but what I do - it doesn't seem elaborate to me but it might seem elaborate to somebody who was not in love with house plants - but the sun here is so bright, we are at 7,000 feet, so the sun is really hot and it's really bright and they would just burn up if I didn't protect them. So I put out two step ladders, on the shady side of the house, and I run boards through the steps and then I put the plants on the boards, hang some of them, let some of them sit. I have a sheet which I staple to the fence and I put over the top of the stepladders - you know what, I'm going to send you a photo of my setup - it's a light-coloured sheet, so it does get some light, but it protects everything from the burning hot sun. That way, I can give my plants the summer vacation outdoors but they don't get scorched, but that's extremely important here. When I was in Pennsylvania, I would just gradually get them used to the sunlight over a period of like four or five days, the way you'd harden off seedlings, and then just space them around the garden, some hanging from tree branches, some in the shade of a tree, but it was much easier there because the sun wasn't nearly as fierce.

Jane: Yes, that is the factor. I think people just don't realise the difference in the strength of light anywhere indoors compared to outside and then, obviously, exponentially so where you are in New Mexico, it's going to be really sunny. Is it the case that succulents are so everywhere that they're not particularly prized as houseplants? Everyone's like, "Oh yes, there's a giant Agave!" That's what I imagine. I've not been to New Mexico, so I'm just giving you my terrible English stereotypes of what it would be like?

Ellen: No, that's okay, because I have my terrible English stereotypes of the lush Gertrude Jekyll gardens, or whatever.

Jane: That's what it looks like just up here!

Ellen: I'm sure it is.

Jane: There is no mud bath from my lawn, or anything!

Ellen: Succulents are extremely popular here outside because we get so little rain. Back east, we had an average of, let's say, 45 inches of rain in a year and here we're lucky if we get ten to fifteen, so it's a completely different plant palette. Succulents are very popular as garden plants but they're not the same succulents that you would grow indoors because these are succulents that require winter dormancy. So yes there's a lot of cacti, a lot of succulents in the landscape, but they're very different from our houseplant succulents.

Jane: I know you're a succulent fan. I never quite get whether Hoyas are classed as succulents. Are they semi-succulents? All these divisions seem a bit arbitrary. Are you into things other than Hoyas in the succulent line?

Ellen: Technically speaking, I think that whether something is succulent or not may have to do with the kind of photosynthesis that it performs. It's been a long time since I took a botany class, but I remember that the CAD/CAM photosynthesis cycle is what the really, truly succulent Hoyas do and that's when they open up their stomata at night when they're less likely to lose moisture. There are some... Hoya pachyclada that is one Hoya that is considered a true succulent. Then you have some, like Hoya multiflora, with really thin leaves, which I would say is not succulent at all, but most of them I would put in the semi-succulent range. That's great for houseplant growers because it means they don't require watering every three to five days and they're going to have some reserves to draw on if you go away on vacation or if you just forget, or get too busy.

Jane: Yes, exactly. I don't know about you, I sort of tell people how to water their plants but I do have to admit that oftentimes it's me flinging water as I pass by at a plant that's looking desperately thirsty because I haven't watered it! We can probably divide growers into the people who want to water constantly and the people who don't water enough and I'm definitely the latter!

Ellen: That's why I grow the houseplants that I grow. I'm looking now at several Sansevierias, some really drought-tolerant orchids, a couple of Aspidistras... If it requires constant care, it doesn't grow in my house because, as much as I love houseplants, I have other things to do in life!

Jane: I agree totally and let's just finish off with a small amount of crystal ball gazing! Can you, with your vast knowledge of houseplants and history with them and doing Plantrama, can you see where houseplants are going? Do you think this explosion of interest is going to continue? Is it inevitably going to be a bit cyclical?

Ellen: I think everything is cyclical, I really do, but the wave of popularity that houseplants are enjoying right now, I hope it's with us for a while and I think it will be. My crystal ball is not always very accurate but I think houseplants are here to stay because they're just so rewarding and I think what it needed was for people who are enthusiastic about it to reach critical mass and now that the numbers are great enough and people are supplying more interesting houseplants and the availability is there and the prices are, well, sometimes the prices are insane, but sometimes they're not, and I think it's going to continue to grow in popularity as a subject for years, I hope, I really do.

Jane: Well, thank goodness for that because that secures the future of both our podcasts! Well, it's been great to speak to you, Ellen, thank you very much!

Ellen: You're very welcome. My pleasure, Jane.

[music]

Jane: Thanks so much to my guest, Ellen Zachos. If you are a Patreon subscriber, at the Ledge-end or SuperFan level, you can hear an Extra Leaf episode with Ellen talking about another aspect of her expertise, which is foraging, and do check out the show notes to this episode at janeperrone.com for pictures of the Hoyas we've been talking about and also Ellen's awesome tattoo. I'd love to know what plant tattoos you have! As you heard in the interview, I am a tattoo refusenik but I love looking at other people's tattoos, so if you've got an awesome plant tattoo, do let me know! That's all for this week, I'll be back next Friday for more leafy badinage. Bye!

[music]

Jane: The music you heard in this episode was Roll Jordan Roll by the Joy Drops, Fire Tree by Axletree and Plantationby Jason Shaw. All tracks are licensed under Creative Commons. Visit janeperrone.com for details.

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Garden writer and podcaster Ellen Zachos joins me to talk about our favourite Hoyas, plant tattoos and the future of houseplants. And I answer a question about plants to place next to a heater.

Patreon subscribers at the Ledge End and Superfan level can listen to An Extra Leaf 65, where I talk to Ellen about foraging.

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Ellen’s Hoya bella tattoo. Photograph: Ellen Zachos.

This week’s guest

Ellen Zachos co-hosts Plantrama podcast with fellow horticulturist CL Fornari. She is the author of several books including Growing Healthy Houseplants, Orchid Growing for Wimps and Down & Dirty: 43 Fun & Funky First-Time Projects & Activities to Get You Gardening. You can find her as @EllenZachos on Twitter and she’s on Instagram here.

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Hoya curtisii. Photograph: Ellen Zachos.

Check out the show notes below as you listen.

• The first Hoya Ellen Zachos mentions as one of her favourites is Hoya caudata (pictured above).

• Second on Ellen’s list is Hoya vitellina which has large leaves with wavy margins: the foliage will blush pink or red in sunlight, a characteristic that is prized in some Hoyas.

• Third is Hoya curtisii (pictured left) which has small, spade-shaped speckled leaves: Ellen suggests this plant needs cooler conditions at night to thrive.

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Ellen protects her houseplants from the New Mexico sun when they go outside for the summer. Photograph: Ellen Zachos.

• Hoyas are easy to propagate: try Ellen’s method of wrapping damp kitchen paper around the cut stem and placing in a blown-up clear plastic bag. Within two to three weeks, roots appear and the cutting can be potted up into a houseplant potting mix.

• Ellen suggests Hoya publicalyx for newcomers to this genus as a starter plant.

• Hoya carnosa is another good choice and the most widely available. Both can sit in a cold window over winter.

• The first Hoya I ever had was H. carnosa ‘Krimson Queen’.

• The ‘beast’ Hoya I mention is (what I think is) Hoya villosa.

• I am growing H. serpens from seed from listener Lauren for the sowalong this year: a beautiful small-leaved Hoya with greenish flowers. Picture of the seedlings below.

• One Hoya that is considered a true succulent is Hoya pachyclada which means it can cope with periods of drought.

• Hoyas can be moved outside for the summer but remember to gradually introduce them to the higher light levels of the outside and protect them from direct sunlight: the amount of protection will depend on where you live and how much shade is available. Ellen rigs up a sheet to protect her Hoyas from the fierce New Mexico sun.

• Interested in hearing more about Hoyas? Check out these other episodes of On The Ledge.

Hoya serpens seedlings. Photograph: Jane Perrone.

QUESTION OF THE WEEK

Rachel asks what plants could survive on a west-facing windowsill with a panel heater underneath. I suggest trying to mitigate the effects of the heater by adding a grille or cover that directs the heat towards the room and away from the window, using shelving and hanging plants from a curtain rail. In terms of plant choice, permanent residents could include Hoyas hanging in the window, or snake plants (Sansevieria genus as was, now Dracaena) or the ZZ plant (Zamioculcas zamiifolia). In the summer when the heater is off, Haworthias or Gasterias are good choices, as they are succulents that need a little less sun than others.

Want to ask me a question? Email ontheledgepodcast@gmail.com. The more information you can include, the better - pictures of your plant, details of your location and how long you have had the plant are always useful to help solve your issue!

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HOW TO SUPPORT ON THE LEDGE

Contributions from On The Ledge listeners help to pay for all the things that have made the show possible over the last few years: equipment, travel expenses, editing, admin support and transcription.

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If you prefer to support the show in other ways, please do go and rate and review On The Ledge on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher or wherever you listen. It's lovely to read your kind comments, and it really helps new listeners to find the show. You can also tweet or post about the show on social media - use #OnTheLedgePodcast so I’ll pick up on it! 

CREDITS

This week's show featured the tracks Roll Jordan Roll by the Joy Drops, Fire Tree by Axletree and Plantation by Jason Shaw.