Episode 267: container food growing

Container gardener Mark Ridsill Smith of Vertical Veg. Photograph: Clare Bowes , Vertical Veg

Transcript

On The Ledge Episode 267

SPEAKERS Jane Perrone, Mark Ridsill Smith

Jane Perrone
Hello and welcome to On The Ledge podcast. I'm your host, Jane Perrone, and this week, we are containing our excitement! Now, I know I sound as excitable as somebody who's been poked with a sharp stick, but summer's here, folks, and any time I need a boost, I can just go and feel up my tomato plants and enjoy the wonderful scent of fresh tomato leaves. Does that make you feel good? Maybe it's just me? In this week's episode, I am treading slightly away from On The Ledge's core topic of houseplants, but that's okay! The show has been going six and a half years - I think we can cope with a little bit of mission creep because this week we're talking growing food in containers with Mark Ridsill Smith of the wonderful website, Vertical Veg. He's also the author of an award-winning book, The Vertical Veg Guide to Container Gardening. So, I find out what crops do and don't work in containers, what you can grow on your windowsill and how you can avoid falling into common mistakes people make when starting out with a container food garden. Plus I answer a question about growlights.

Jane Perrone
Now, I do love a message that makes me feel good and that's exactly what I got from JK on Instagram this week. Over there, I'm at j.l.perrone. The message from JK read as follows: "I love your podcast and I wanted to let you know you have inspired me to be more involved with our local orchid society. I spent several hours yesterday with the chairman, who was lovely enough to show us his greenhouse. I'm planning on helping him organise and re-pot his plants and I'm so excited! Thank you for the inspiration". Well, thank you, JK, for the inspiration and I'm so glad that you're getting involved with your local orchid society! That's great news!

Jane Perrone
Quick reminder, if you are in the UK and you want a signed and dedicated copy of my book, 'Legends of the Leaf', get in touch. You can contact me directly and I will get that organised for you. I don't have many copies available for that because it's a lot of work to send them out, but I do have a few, so if you're a dedicated listener to the show - I'm not advertising this really anywhere else - so if you're dedicated listener to the show, please get in touch and I will sort you a copy. The book's going down very well, a couple of really nice reviews on Amazon, but you know us authors, we're always hungry for more, so if you've read 'Legends of the Leaf' and you want to leave a review, do go to Goodreads, or Amazon, or anywhere else you can leave a review, and say something nice! I'm sure that in your next life you will be rewarded for this excellent behaviour! And if you're not subscribed to The Plant Ledger, my email newsletter about the houseplant scene, then head on over to janeperrone.com/ledger and take a look. It comes out every Friday, it's packed - I mean packed! - full of good, planty information and I'd love you to subscribe. You will not regret it, I'm sure, and you also get a free guide - yes, that's free! - to dealing with fungus gnats and it doesn't just tell you to put cinnamon on the soil. Oh no! It gives you good, in-depth, accurate info on treating this particular houseplant problem, so do check that out: janeperrone.com/ledger

Jane Perrone
On with the business of this week's show. Mark Ridsill Smith I've admired from afar for quite a few years now. He is the container gardener extraordinaire, so if you don't have a garden, if you only have a porch, or a patio, balcony, terrace, a set of steps, or even just a windowsill indoors, this guy is somebody to listen to. Do check out his website, verticalveggie.org.uk and here's my chat with him, where we cover everything, from how much we love runner beans, to how to grow cardamom indoors!

Mark Ridsill Smith
Hello! I'm Mark Ridsill Smith and I grow food in containers and I started by accident, really. I lived in a flat, a small flat in London, and I just had a balcony, I didn't have any garden or allotment. But I had this desperate yearning to grow food and I started just for fun, not really expecting very much, and discovered that I could actually grow a lot of food. And as well as that, I found that I started meeting my neighbours who were intrigued by the plants I was growing. And we started eating much better food, much more vegetables, started recycling our waste food, and basically just sort of changed the way we lived in the city. You know, we were living surrounded by concrete, but suddenly we were surrounded by plants as well. And after that experience, I started Vertical Veg, to try and inspire more people who don't have gardens, to grow food in containers at home,

Jane Perrone
I've always been impressed, when I'm looking at your social media, at quite how madly green your container areas are! I absolutely feel inspired by what you do, Mark. What is it about growing food in containers that you love? I guess the obvious thing is you were forced into it, not having any other outdoor space, but what are the things that you can really mark out as a plus, that you maybe don't get, growing in on an allotment, or in the ground?

Mark Ridsill Smith
That's a really interesting question. We do now have an allotment, since moving to Newcastle ten years ago. It's easy to get, or easier to get, an allotment here. So it's quite interesting, because I can compare the two because I still grow at home, I have a concrete front yard where I grow in containers, and the thing I love about the container gardening is that it's at home, it's on the doorstep, and that means I can enjoy it every day and every time I go in and out of the house, or I can see them from the windows, sort of inside the house. And it's so convenient when I'm cooking, you know: I've got a lot of herbs and salads at home. And just being able to pop outside and, in one minute, pick some fresh herbs, is really, really rewarding. So I love that aspect of it. And the other thing I really like about it, and I think many of us who grow in the middle of the city find, is that somehow it's almost more miraculous. But, you know, when you've got like, I mean, my front yard is like a really - was, when we moved in - a really ugly bit of concrete. I can't really tell you how ugly it was! And when you get streets full of these, it's just really bleak and depressing. But with containers, you know, you can suddenly change that space into a space which is full of life. Vibrant bees come and visit, birds, you know, you don't always want the birds because they dig things up and all the rest of it, but it's still, it's for life there, which changes the feel of it. And I think it changes the feel of it for people, not just you personally, but for other people who live in the area. So yes, that's why I love container gardening!

Jane Perrone
Oh, that's a really good answer. You're right, convenience is all! I grow a few things in containers. When I have a reasonably-sized garden, I guess my main thing is potatoes - and because my daughter is a bit of a potato addict! - and one thing I like about harvesting potatoes in containers, is it's just really quick and a lot less messy and you can find them all! It's not like in the ground, where you can leave any behind. So those are my pros, very specific ones, for container growing!

Mark Ridsill Smith
And kids love harvesting. There's something really special about doing it with children, emptying a container full of potatoes - they absolutely love it!

Jane Perrone
It really is a voyage of discovery. For a few years, I was keeping records, I've lapsed in recent years, but I was keeping records of my potato harvests and it's always interesting to see, oh, this year I got another 200 grammes out of that bag and just measuring up how much you get. It's never going to be a huge harvest, but it's, as you say, it's tremendous fun!

Mark Ridsill Smith
It's enough to have one or two meals, you're never going to be self-sufficient in potatoes, but there's something really nice about having a few bowls of new potatoes that you've just dug up. Yeah, that's all, like, that's all I need, really, is a few bowls of new potatoes. But yeah, it's a lovely thing to start the year.

Jane Perrone
It is, it is, yes. And I've got my daughter involved with planting them this year. I mean, she's 16, she's not a toddler or anything, but it's taken a long time to get into doing stuff in the garden, but she's quite excited because, you know, I've got a waxy potato and I've got a floury potato and, as a potato connoisseur, she's quite looking forward to that! So we will see. Now, I think one of the things about container gardening is it's a low entry bar because you just need some kind of container and a bit of, some kind of hard standing but are there things that people tend to get wrong when they're starting out in this journey? Any bits of advice from somebody who's been there and done that with this particular kind of gardening?

Mark Ridsill Smith
I mean, the thing about container gardening is it is really, really simple. On one level, it's really simple, but there are a few mistakes that it is very easy to make if you've never done it before and a lot of people who've never done it before don't have much, you know, often don't have much reference to people, you know, who you know who they can speak to about it. So the common things that I find is, it's very easy to assume that all the stuff you buy labelled as 'potting mix' in the shops is all the same, but of course, people who grow know that it does actually vary quite a lot in quality. So, the stuff you get from the cheap, from the supermarket, is, the main thing about it, it's not necessarily bad, but the main thing about it is it's much more inconsistent than the more expensive sort of brands. And, for experienced guys, that doesn't really matter so much because they can see how well something's performing and they can do something to correct it, but if you're a new grower, sometimes things just don't grow very well and people think, "Oh, I can't grow, I can't grow!" but actually, they've done nothing at all wrong, it's just that the potting mix that they're using unfortunately is not very good quality. So that's one common thing. Another thing is a lot of people look on things like Pinterest, and there's a lot of images on there, people creating, like, bottle gardens and, you know, it's a fun thing to do, to grow in bottles, and it's possible, but it's also difficult because the volume of a bottle is small, which means it dries out very quickly, and there's not that much space for the roots, and it's much, much easier to grow in larger containers, so I always recommend people to, I mean, it does depend on what you're growing, so, leafy veg, you can grow in small containers and they'll grow into small plants, but if you're growing things like tomatoes and other sorts of fruiting crops, then it's much much easier to grow them in large containers. And the other mistake - I mean, I made all these mistakes myself, I hasten to add, so I sort of learned the hard way - but another thing, one of the things I did, was I grew rocket one year and was quite pleased with myself because it did quite well, and when I grew it again the next year in the same pot and didn't realise that all the nutrients in the potting mix had been used up and then, of course, the second year didn't really grow at all. And, you know, I subsequently learned that you do need to feed plants in containers for them to grow well and if you want to reuse compost, which is quite possible to do, you need to add in some fertiliser or some sort of nutrients. And the other also, of course, the classic mistake, which is really easy to do when you when you start out, and particularly when you don't have very many containers because you don't have a lot invested in it, is you just forget to water and I was really bad at that and, yeah, and plants and containers just do, you know, I often think of them as, like, you know, babies, you know! They do need looking after, from us, you know, whereas, you know, plants on the ground are a bit more like wild animals, they can sort of fend for themselves, in containers, they really do need our care and if we forget to water them, they don't do very well. So I often recommend that people get, you know, more than, like, one or two containers, so they have, sort of, more invested in it because I think you've got a bit more invested in it, it's easier to remember and then just having, like, a routine every day just really helps. But those are probably the main things. The only other thing I would probably say, is it's very easy to be over-optimistic about how much sun your space gets because people come home from work, you know, and it's lovely and sunny on their balcony, or whatever, but they're not there the rest of the day, when we see, actually, it's in full shade. And a lot of urban spaces are quite shady and that does make quite a big difference to how they'll grow, and you can grow things on shady balconies and in shady spaces, it's just you have to choose carefully, and things like chillis and tomatoes, I have a lot of emails from people who tell me about what wonderfully red tomato plant grew, but it never, the fruit never ripened in most cases. That's because it simply hasn't got enough sun.

Jane Perrone
What is it with tomatoes? Everybody, the first thing they want to grow is tomatoes, and I often think "Gosh, that's really not the easiest thing to start out with", particularly, as you say, because unless you've got a lovely suntrap, they may well not get enough sun and they're not the easiest, you know, as a sort of a tender, Mediterranean crop, they're not that easy.

Mark Ridsill Smith
Yeah, and they need a long time. They need quite a long growing period as well. So you have to, and people go away. You know, they do really well into mid-July, and when people go on holiday and they come back and they've sort of shrivelled up.

Jane Perrone
Yeah, that is the problem. And going back to the watering, I think the thing with watering is that people sort of think, "Well, it's rained today, they'll be fine!" and, you know, if you're on a covered space, like a balcony, you probably haven't got much rain and even if it's not covered, actually, not that much rain gets into the pot, you know - they still need watering and that's something that certainly I've been caught out with in the past.

Mark Ridsill Smith
Yeah, I still get, I still get caught out with it. And the other thing people really get caught out with, and it's really weird how long it took me to realise this myself, because it's so obvious when you say it, but it's not easy to realise when people, when you start out, that as plants get bigger in containers, they need more water. And that's so obvious when I say it, but people, you know, like, when you start growing a potato, it doesn't need very much water, but people love it at that point, you know, they cherish it, so they're giving it, you know, it's shooting up, a little shoot, they're giving it loads of water, because they're, like, wanting it to grow, but then when it gets big and bushy, they sort of forget about it, but it's at that point where it actually needs masses of water, because it's got this great big root system, it's got all these big leaves, which are like waving about in the wind and losing water. So it's just, it's sort of, like, sort of built into your mind that as plants get bigger, they need more and more water.

Jane Perrone
That's very true. Now, when it comes to the containers themselves, again, as you've already indicated with the compost, it can get expensive pretty quickly, if you're gonna go to the garden centre and buy a load of brand new spanking new containers for your veg, or, there's some thrifty ways that you can cut down those expenses. What kind of things do you use for containers?

Mark Ridsill Smith
It's really interesting, that, because I think this sort of growing is one of those things where you can grow it at almost almost any budget, really. It's very easy to spend very, very large sums of money on it. And I'm not saying that, that's, you know, that's fine, if that's what you want to do, but it is also possible to grow on an extremely low budget. There's a lot of containers you can find for free. They often tend to turn up when you're not looking for anything. But there's a lot of things you can use. So, things like those veg, supermarket crates. I was given lots by a food bank there who just to the supermarket weren't collecting them from them. You can use old recycling bins, if you get them, those mushroom trays, with, sort of, holes in, you just need to line those with newspaper. I mean, the only thing is, there is a certain sort of aesthetic with those sorts of recycled containers, which, you know, quite understandably, doesn't suit, you know, every space. But often, there is a way to make them look nice, if you want to. So, I have them at the front of my house and what I've done, is I've just got, like, a wooden facade, which is just very simple, but just a bit of wood to hide them, so it looks like a bit like a raised bed. But actually, inside, there's a plastic container. And when we look around, and if you go on the internet, you can find loads and loads of ideas. I mean, people use things like washing machine tubs, you know the metal bit from the inside of washing machine tubs, old hot water tanks. There's been so many different things people use - barrels - but the other thing I would say, the other sort of thing, I would say, for saving money, is you can reuse, you know, once you've bought the the potting mix, you can reuse it again every year and that really saves a lot of time and makes it also a lot more economical and the other thing I say is, well, with plants and things, another thing you can do, which I think is really good fun as well, is rather than going to a garden centre or buying them online, is look out for local, community plant sales and plant swaps. So, often, like, community gardens and things, will have plant sales and there, normally, plants are a fraction of the price. They're grown locally, and, normally, when you buy them, you also get a lot of good advice from the person who's grown them. And, you know, I think the community aspect of growing, particularly in cities, is a lovely way for people to bond together. So yeah, there's lots of ways that you can grow, you can cut the cost of growing, really quite significantly.

Jane Perrone
Yeah, fantastic advice. I love a good allotment . . . yeah, there's an allotment plant sale that happens every year where I live, where they sell all this extra stuff they've grown, which is amazing. And, you know, my porch is rarely bare of either something I'm giving away to somebody or something somebody's giving to me, so I love that kind of thing. And you do, as you say, you're saving so much money, and it also means that the miles the plants had to travel are massively reduced, which is great.

Jane Perrone
More container gardening chat soon, but now it's time for Question of the Week and this one comes from Laura, who was asking about growlight recommendations for the UK. Now, I can make some specific recommendations on UK growlights, because, obviously, that's where I'm based and those are the ones that I can get a hold of, but also, I think there are some general points to make about growlights which apply wherever you live. And do go back and listen to my episode with Lesley Hallock where we go deep into the subject of growlights. Here, I'm going to be talking specifically about LED growlights, because those are the ones that I've had experience using. So, here in the UK, there are a few brands available and the ones that I have had direct experience with are mainly the Mother.Life growlights, these actually come from Belgium but they sell across Europe and, I think, actually across the world. What I like about these lights, is the fact that they have been designed to be sustainable. What does that mean? I prefer to buy lights that are going to last and these ones I do believe are going to last. They come with a four year warranty and they're designed specifically to have components that can be replaced and repaired without actually having to just be chucked away, like so many things we buy these days. So yeah, if you can repair something, that is a big plus for me. So, 'Mother' growlights - the plant spectrum is the one that I have - and you can either mount it as a vertical, or horizontally, so you've got different options. You can hang them as well. There are different mounts available on their website. So Mother.Life are the ones that I would probably recommend first, in terms of ones that are easily available in the UK. I also have Soltec growlights and, as you know, I've advertised these on the show before - they are fantastic. If you're buying in the UK, then you are going to face higher shipping costs because, as far as I know, and I hope Soltec will correct me if I'm wrong, they don't have a UK distributor. Obviously, that may change and, you know, do contact them and say please, please get a UK distributor - their lights are fantastic! I do have some and they're very sturdy and I would also recommend these for the same reasons that I recommend Mother.Life - they are going to last and they won't be like these things you buy very cheaply online that just go 'plonk' after a short amount of time. The other growlight bulbs, I have other ones from IKEA. Unfortunately, these don't seem to be available in the UK any more. I have occasionally seen them available second-hand, or, you know, on places like eBay, so you might be able to pick one of those up. I found them to be reliable and you can screw them into normal-sized light fittings. So if you can get your hands on those, they are definitely worth a look. So those are my personal experiences. If you're looking for growlights, what I would say is just have a look at what you're being offered in terms of warranty. How long is that light bulb going to be guaranteed for if it fails? Some lights seem to fail very quickly and it's really frustrating if you've spent money on a light and, within a few months, it stops working. So yeah, check the guarantee, the warranty. How long has it got? Can you send it back? And, you know, is this product designed to have replaceable parts? That's something I would really want to be asking now. Is it something where I can recycle this, or I can replace the parts? That's what I want to know when I'm buying a new product. I don't just want to be adding to the massive pile of of discarded electronics that we're all building up. And if you are thinking about growlights, the other consideration is looks and, again, Mother.Life and Soltec lights, they look really good, they are going to fit into your decor without looking like you're in a commercial grow room. So again, if that's a consideration, that's something worth bearing in mind. But yes, save up, spend as much as you can, initially, on a really good quality growlight and it should save you money in the long run. So I do hope that helps Laura and let me know your growlight experiences; what have really worked for you, what have been a complete failure, and what would you recommend? I think we're all moving past that phase of where we're happy with purple glowing lights in our front room! We all want white lights these days, don't we? So, you know, it's really up to these growlight companies to start stepping up in terms of looks, but also sustainability. Just like every other product, they should be something that we can have around for years to come. If you've got a question for On The Ledge, drop me a line: ontheledgepodcast@gmail.com is the address to use. And now back to my chat on growing food in containers.

Jane Perrone
Are there any particular food crops that don't work in containers, that we should avoid? I mean, we've talked a little bit about potatoes and tomatoes, both of which work pretty well, as long as you kind of get the technique right, but is there anything where you just say, "Don't bother trying this! It really just needs to be in the ground!"?

Mark Ridsill Smith
I don't think there's anything which you can't grow in, in containers, I think. And I would always say to people if you love something because I think it's just important that whatever you grow, you know, you just love it, you know, for whatever reason, you love it. But there are definitely some things which it does, sort of, make more sense in containers than others. So, for example, if you contrast tomatoes, which we've said are good, you know, they do take a bit of a long time to grow. But if you contrast that with parsnips, for example - and I love a parsnip - you know, a parsnip takes as long, if not longer than a tomato to grow, it takes up pretty much as much space, but at the end of the year, you know, you're picking one parsnip, whereas tomatoes, you know, you're going to be picking them, you know, potentially every day for three to four months, even. And also, when you harvest your parsnip, you might find it's got lots of holes in it because it's been eaten by slugs, or something. Yeah, and then you contrast something like broad beans, which, again, I absolutely love broad beans, they're one of my favourite plants, but if you grow a container full of broad beans, and you harvest them at the end of the harvest, you'll probably have enough, once you've shelled them, you'll probably have enough for, like, one or two meals with, like, a small pile of beans on the side, whereas if you grow runner beans, I grow them in those sort of supermarket crates, I can get, sometimes, I get, like, 10 kilos of runner beans off one container. And that is a lot of runner beans, that's more than . . . we don't need to grow them on the allotment, or anything, because, to be honest, I do like runner beans, but 10 kilos is absolutely plenty for us and even in a bad year we'll probably get five, it's just that some plants . . . whereas, you know, things like herbs, you know, you can pick them every day, every day, you can go out there and you can pick them and use them, so they're brilliant things to grow in containers. Salad is really good because, you know, you want it on your doorstep. It's really nice to eat it really fresh. Whereas things like the things which grow really slowly I guess, so things like purple sprouting broccoli and the big root vegetables which take a long time to mature, those sorts of things will probably be less suitable.

Jane Perrone
Great advice! Runner beans are a funny thing because I don't think many . . . well, I know this for a fact because my when my dad moved to Canada, when my parents moved to Canada, my dad was very surprised to go into a garden centre and find that runner bean seeds were being sold in the ornamental section because they aren't really grown for their pods, as edibles. They're more grown as a, sort of a temporary screen, as you would do sweet peas, which kind of blew his mind. So I'm not sure that many Americans grow runner beans, but they should because runner beans are absolutely delicious. And as you say, such a heavy harvest. I always think of allotments and, sort of, when you see an allotment site with, like, a 12 foot row of runner beans and you're thinking "Gosh, I hope they've got a big freezer because that's going to produce a massive crop!". It's just amazing!

Mark Ridsill Smith
Yeah, and when you eat them small, they're really delicious. And of course French beans. I mean I've mentioned runner beans, but French beans or pole beans which I think are grown more in Canada and America, are almost just as productive and just as pretty as well. And that's another nice thing about growing them in containers at home, is I make this sort of wigwam and have the orange flowers and things. However, I'm not growing it as an ornamental, but you definitely get that benefit and the bees love them as well.

Jane Perrone
Yeah, the flowers are really beautiful. I think there's a couple of varieties where the flowers are kind of red and white, and some of them are just plain red. I've grown the white blossoms one before, which is the bean that's used to make what when you go to Greece on a package holiday in the cafes, is sold as 'big beans', which is basically like a tomatoey bean stew. Have you ever had that? I don't know if you've ever had that, but you can get the specific runner bean cultivar that they use to make those, which are, again, white, which are white flowers. And yeah, you can get these very interesting . . . I'm going off on a bean rant now, but I find it fascinating!

Mark Ridsill Smith
The white beans look like - the white beans that are runner beans - I always think of them, when I've done workshops with kids, I bring them along, "These are magic beans!" because, I don't know, there's something which does look magic about a white bean! I don't know why!

Jane Perrone
Yeah, absolutely! And they are good in containers, as you say, because you can grow a, sort of a convenient amount, rather than the sort of crazy quantities you get if you have an allotment and you go for a whole big row. But you've got to have a big freezer. That's the main thing. Now, we haven't talked about the other major issue that container gardening, or any kind of outdoor gardening, can bring along, which is pests. I mean, is it mainly, I suppose it depends whether you're on the 10th floor of a block of flats, but is it mainly slugs and snails? What are the major pests that you're facing when you're container gardening?

Mark Ridsill Smith
I guess it it is. I mean slugs and snails do inhabit these spaces and they even seem to get high up after a while, as well. And it's, I think, one of the challenges of that is it's sometimes quite hard to have a sort of balanced ecosystem that you might have at the allotment, with all the different things that might eat your slugs and snails, but I think you get most, you know, most of the things, you know, common things you potentially can get, you know, you can get blight on tomatoes, you can get aphids, you can get flea beetles, but I think it's like a lot of gardening, and a lot of your houseplant gardening. I mean, I'm just guessing here, but the main thing, really, is plant health, and if you're able to keep your plants healthy, in most instances, you will have much fewer problems with pests. And so a lot of people who contact me and they'll say I've got this terrible pest problem, it's really difficult to grow because there's so many aphids, or so many slugs, and, quite often, there's an underlying issue and the most common reason is actually that the plants haven't been watered enough and when they're not watered enough, even if they survive, they get a bit of a stress of not getting quite enough water, it weakens them and they become much more susceptible to attack. So everything that you can do to, you know, keep them, you know, we talked about this like looking after a baby, making sure they're well fed. I often spray very dilute liquid seaweed, so it goes, if you spray it on the leaves, it goes a very long way, a bottle lasts, it's expensive, but it lasts ages and ages because you only need to put, like, one capsule in a spray bottle, then you need to spray it on the leaves and that will give the plants a lot of the trace elements and things that they need. And that's a bit like a, sort of, the analogy I use: it's a bit like vitamins for plants. And that can help them grow more strongly. And they're amazing things, plants, you know, they're bit like people in a way, you know, when we're fit and healthy, we're much more resistant to getting bugs and being ill and plants are exactly the same. So if you can keep your plants fit and healthy, they will be able to do amazing things to fight off. You know, I love how they can produce chemicals in their leaves, which make them taste bad, for example, to different pests. They're amazing. So yeah . . .

Jane Perrone
I think that's absolutely right. And I think people are often thinking that the norm is for there to be no pests and that's something they've got to achieve, whereas there's always going to be, they're always going to be there. And, as you say, if the plants are strong, then that allows them to grow past these kinds of problems. I can think of a few examples, though, where large pests, like squirrels digging something up is a bit of a . . .

Mark Ridsill Smith
Cats!

Jane Perrone
Cats, yeah, I mean, I suppose that's just a question of infrastructure to keep them out?

Mark Ridsill Smith
Yes, I mean, the reality of urban growing is you do get . . . yes, you do, exactly, you get things like squirrels, foxes sometimes dig up things. I mean, I even had a fox on my first little balcony at one point, which was quite exciting. But I suppose we're fortunate - we don't have, I get people who grow in places like South Africa, who have monkeys who come along and steal everything. So it's a lot easier, you know, it's a lot easier, often, for us, than that. But yeah, there are, you know . . . these things like squirrels can be difficult sometimes.

Jane Perrone
And I do sometimes hear from people who tell me, "Jane, I've tried! I've, you know, year after year, I'm sowing my tomatoes and it just keeps going wrong!" I mean, can you reassure, first of all, can you reassure everybody that it's normal for there to be failures? And also, any advice for people who just find that they're really struggling with what they're growing? And how can they, kind of, re-set and try again?

Mark Ridsill Smith
Yes, we've all been there haven't we? I'm not a big one into memes, but I did see one the other day, which says the best gardeners are the ones which have made the most mistakes, which I quite liked, because I think it is often true and that is part and parcel of gardening. But then it is also, you know, you also do want to have successes and that's what's motivating and hopefully most of us will have a mix, you know, mostly successes, with the odd failure here and there. I think if people are struggling, one thing I would consider growing anyway, is microgreens. And the reason why I really like microgreens is that from sowing them to harvesting them, it only takes about two weeks for a lot of them, but some of them, the radish, will grow in about eight days. And the nice thing about that, is it means that you have success, and it's motivating, and you are learning by growing because you're seeing these plants grow, you're seeing them germinate, and if it doesn't work, it doesn't matter because you've only lost eight days or 10 days and you just sow another tray and grow them again, whereas, you know, your tomatoes, or whatever, you know, if you've looked after them for three or four months, lovingly, and then you go away on holiday, or they get blight, or something, that's very demoralising. So to build confidence and to build experience, I think microgreens are very good.

Jane Perrone
Are microgreens something that you can successfully grow indoors, provided you've got enough light?

Mark Ridsill Smith
Yes! Most edible crops need a lot of sun, or, you know, some sun. I mean, leafy crops probably can do okay with, like, three or four hours' sun, but microgreens, because you're not growing them, you're growing them to such a, sort of small stage, they will actually do okay. I mean, they do best in one or two hours' sun but they will actually do okay. As long as it's bright, you can actually grow a, sort of, worthwhile crop and they're one of the best things, you know, particularly if you want to grow inside and you want to grow productively inside and actually grow quite a lot of food, microgreens, I mean, people form, you know, create businesses growing microgreens inside, you know. They grow enough to supply restaurants, which means, you know, but if we're doing it at home, you know, we should be, you know, it's not that difficult for us to grow enough salad, for example, for our family to eat, by growing microgreens, which is quite nice and rewarding to do at home.

Jane Perrone
Give me your top six, or top five, microgreens to try and a thirty second summary of how to get started. What are the best microgreens out there? I mean, I like a really spicy, strong flavour, like, as you say, radish, or maybe coriander, but what are your favourites?

Mark Ridsill Smith
I can't argue with any of that. That sounds like a great top six!

Mark Ridsill Smith
Okay, so for my top six would be pea shoots, sunflower, absolutely amazing, sunflower, crunchy, nutty, delicious. Radish, for speed of growth and for spicy flavour, coriander, rocket, or ricola is very good. And what would my six be? So many to choose from! Probably mixed mustards, actually, Asian mix mustards because you get the different leaf colours and they have a strong, nice, sort of spicy flavour as well.

Mark Ridsill Smith
And you were just saying about getting going, well, I mean, one thing about them which makes them easy to grow, is that a lot of them you can just grow from, you know, store-bought. You don't have to go and buy fancy seeds, you can just grow them from store-bought pulses and things, so, pea shoots you can go from dried marrowfat peas and coriander grows pretty well often from, you know, your spice packs from the supermarket, or the Asian store. So that's just quite a fun and easy way to grow and just sow them very thickly, grow them in a seed tray, sow them very thickly and put them in a bright place on a windowsill and in two weeks - coriander takes longer; coriander is slow - but pea shoots will be ready in about two weeks.

Jane Perrone
And is there anything else aside from microgreens that you could class as something that looks like a houseplant but is also edible? This is quite a, I guess, quite a small subsection of our houseplants, but is there anything else that you grow indoors that you regularly harvest from?

Mark Ridsill Smith
There's a couple of things. I grow quite a lot of herbs, things like basil, which doesn't like the cold outside, I've got a cardamom plant I'm very pleased with, which seems to . . . I'm not very good at looking after houseplants, not a very good guest for you, really, because I tend to . . . my wife is the expert on the houseplants, but even me, even I have managed to keep my cardamom plant alive for about five years and I've even been able to divide it and give it away to quite a lot of people and it's got an amazing smell. It's, it doesn't - in my house, it doesn't flower and produce fruit, so I think you need a greenhouse for that - but it does produce a lot of wonderful-smelling leaves. And the other thing I grow, which is quite fun, is I grow lemongrass inside at home as well, just from the lemongrass stalks you get from a supermarket, plonking, plonk them in soil, and, you know, like a cutting, and that's quite a fun one to grow inside.

Jane Perrone
The cardamom leaves, are they something you can put in a curry or salad?

Mark Ridsill Smith
You can use them like bay leaves. So you can, sort of, use them to flavour. You wouldn't really eat them. But if you were doing, like, a, sort of, I don't know, curry bake, or something like that, you could mix them in, or a pilaf, or something like that, you could mix them in with the rice and then just take them out at the end and they would impart that lovely sort of cardamom flavour.

Jane Perrone
Oh, my mouth is watering now! You've reminded me that I need to go and sow some more pea shoots because I haven't done any for a while and I absolutely, they're my, probably my favourite microgreen, just so much fun and so easy. So thank you for all that brilliant advice. Is there anything else about container gardening that we haven't yet discussed? Any nuggets of wisdom, Mark, that you need to impart?

Mark Ridsill Smith
I think one of the things that people don't realise, is that it is possible, you know, if you want to, it is possible to create a very worthwhile and potentially productive garden in containers. And there are all these wonderful herbs that you can grow and that are ideally suited and that you can, you know, when you've got a herb larder on your doorstep, you can add them, add herbs, to your meals. You know, every meal you cook, you don't have to go and buy a herb. You know, if you're doing an Ottolenghi recipe, or something, and he lists four different herbs, you know, which makes you think, well, first of all, you'll have to go and get them, which is a right pain and they're probably quite expensive. It's really nice just to be able to pop out on to your doorstep and they take up very little space: you put them on a ladder, or something, outside. Herbs are really, you know, particularly people who enjoy eating food and want to eat a, sort of, diversity of food - because you can also use them to make simple dishes, like, you know, an egg omelette, or something - if you've got some fresh sorrel or tarragon, and things, on the doorstep, you know, an omelette can suddenly be like a really gourmet dish with some of those in, or a rice dish, you know, plain rice with lots of fresh herbs mix through suddenly becomes a really delicious little dish. So, you know, I think it's easy to think, "Oh, it's container gardening. You can't really do much!" you know, if you're growing food at home, but actually, I think you can do a lot. And there's something about the small space, which I think challenges our creativity and also makes it a bit, you know, in a funny way, sort of almost more rewarding than growing in a large space because you're sort of managing to get a lot out of the small space.

Jane Perrone
Absolutely. And yeah, as you say, we just don't use enough herbs and you can just bung them in anything. It's fantastic. I'm glad you mentioned sorrel. That, I think, that's a very under-rated herb. I love a bit of sorrel and yeah, it goes really well with eggs. And the other thing I absolutely love, and I have not tried growing it in containers but I always like to rave about it, and I'm not sure I've raved about it on On The Ledge so I'm gonna just plug this now, is have you ever grown Good King Henry?

Mark Ridsill Smith
I haven't. I've been meaning to grow it. I haven't grown it, no.

Jane Perrone
It's a Roman pot herb brought over by the Romans and the trick with it is you have to soak it for an hour or two in heavily salted water before you cook it, but if you do that, it is the best spinach substitute ever. It's just the most tastiest leaves and I think it will probably grow really well in q container, actually. It's, yeah, I highly recommend it and, I mean, it's it's not the most . . . it doesn't look particularly . . . the flowers are very boring and the leaves are, sort of, it's not a particularly stunning plant, but I just absolutely love it for the amount of leaves I get off it every year. So I think, probably, that would grow quite well in a container. But yeah, herbs are epic. One herb that I also like, which I don't know if it would be container-worthy because it gets so big, is lovage. I know you can find a, sort of a cut-down size, compact lovage, but I think lovage is another one that I love to have. And I don't know whether I can even get that in the supermarket? Some of these fresh herbs just aren't that widely available.

Mark Ridsill Smith
No, that's one of the nice things, there's loads of, I grow a whole load of different herbs which you just can't really easily buy and lovage, there is a variety of lovage which I absolutely love. It's called Scot's lovage and it is a much more dwarf plant. It has really beautiful, white flowers, a bit like cow parsley, but the flowers are edible as well and actually really flavoursome. So it's a really pretty plant but it's not the same, it's not a thug, like, you know, the common lovage is basically like a six foot tall plant and I'm sure it's possible to go in a container, but not not that easy, whereas Scot's lovage, it does have a slightly different flavour to common lovage. I mean, it's very obviously lovage, but it's different. I really like it. Not everyone does. But it's one of my favourite herbs in the container garden because it's so useful. I mean, if you cook soups, or risottos, or anything, it's just brilliant for adding, like, that base flavour to a dish, or we also sort of chop it up really finely and add it to salad. So yeah, Scot's lovage is a fantastic alternative for container gardens and small spaces.

Mark Ridsill Smith
Well, that's a good tip! I was looking at some Scot's lovage the other day. I don't . . . I have lovage, but not Scot's lovage and I nearly bought some. So maybe I'll go back and get my hands on that because that sounds great! Well, herb chat is over! It's been really great to chat to you, Mark. Thanks so much for all of your wisdom and just summarise for us where we can find you online. I'll also put this in the show notes, but it's just great to hear where people can go and find out more about what you do.

Mark Ridsill Smith
Yes, well hopefully if you Google Vertical Veg, my website will come up. My name is Mark Ridsill Smith, but, of course, no one can ever remember my name, so I always say vertical! I always spell it, you know, obviously it's a hard word to spell! So yes, my website and I've also got a Facebook page, which is Vertical Veg and I started quite recently on Instagram, as well.

Jane Perrone
Brilliant! Well, it's been lovely to chat to you and I hope you have a fabulous growing season this year!

Mark Ridsill Smith
Thank you very much, Jane. It's lovely talking to you. Thank you for having me.

Jane Perrone
Thank you so much to Mark Ridsill Smith and do check out the show notes for all the information you need about Mark, his book and where to find other resources on container gardening. If you are a Patreon subscriber at the Ledge-end or Superfan level, you can go and check out An Extra Leaf number 112, recorded with Mark, where we talk about the wonderful world of wormeries. So, not a compost heap, but a variation on the theme - another way of dealing with food waste by harnessing the incredible powers of a particular kind of worm. It's one of my favourite garden things. So you can go and hear that chat if you are a Patreon subscriber at the Ledge-end or Superfan level. And just a reminder that there's a new feature on Patreon now, which is a free seven day trial. If you want to try out being a Patreon subscriber at no cost, then you can do so! You can have your seven days and then cancel and that's absolutely fine! Sample it out! See what you think. And if you want to stick around, we'd love to have you!

Jane Perrone
That is all for this week's show. I will be back two weeks from now, that's Friday 23rd June. Until then, have a wonderful fortnight. And if you're at a loose end and you need some houseplant chat, do go and join Houseplant Fans of On The Ledge over on Facebook, where the lovely group of people there who listen to the show will welcome you with open arms. If you go on to Facebook, you'll just find that at /houseplantfans. All right, have a great week! Bye! Love you! Bye! Bye, bye, bye, bye! Love you! Bye! See ya!

Jane Perrone
The music you heard in this episode was "Roll Jordan, Roll", by The Joy Drops; "The Road We Used To Travel When We Were Kids", by Komiku; and "Dizzy Spells", by Josh Woodward. All tracks are licenced under Creative Commons. Visit the show notes for details.

Subscribe to On The Ledge via Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Player FM, Stitcher, Overcast, RadioPublic and YouTube.

Mark Ridsill Smith. Photograph: Clare Bowes ,Vertical Veg.

I talk to container gardener Mark Ridsill Smith (aka Vertical Veg) about growing food in containers, both outside and in, plus I answer a question about growlights.

This week’s guest

Mark Ridsill Smith is an expert in growing food in containers, and is known by his website name Vertical Veg.

He lives in Newcastle upon Tyne and has a large container garden in the concrete yard outside his front door as well as an allotment.

Mark’s book is The Vertical Veg Guide to Container Growing and he’s on Instagram as @vertical_veg.

Patreon subscribers at the Ledge End at Superfan tier can listen to An Extra Leaf 112 where Mark and I talk about wormeries.

Check out these notes as you listen…

• Beginners often make the mistake of choosing cheaper substrate/potting mix - cheaper mixes are inconsistent in quality, so it’s worth spending as much as you can - you get what you pay for!

• Bottle gardens and tiny container gardens are popular on social media, but bear in mind they dry out very quickly. It’s easier to opt for larger containers.

• Make sure you feed container plants - you can reuse potting mixes, but you need to add in nutrients, which will have been exhausted in a few weeks.

• Plants in containers are like babies - they need looking after! Don’t forgot to water, especially in hot weather. Have a routine of checking your containers daily. Even if it’s rained, containers probably won’t have absorbed much moisture so will still need watering. As plants get bigger, they need more water - sounds obvious but it’s often a point that is missed! For instance potatoes need the most water in the run-up to harvest.

• It’s easy to be overoptimistic about how much sun your spot gets. Lots of urban spaces are very shady, so you have to choose your crops carefully - salads rather than chillies and tomatoes.

• Picking containers: you don’t have to spend a fortune! Use supermarket crates, recycling bins, plastic boxes, old hot water tanks, washing machine tubs, barrels… if they are “aesthetically challenged” you can make them look nicer by keeping them hidden behind a wooden facade as Mark does.

• Save money on buying plants by buying form local plant sales - it’s cheaper than the garden centre, and you can usually get some good advice from the sellers.

• Some crops work better than others in containers - grow things that produce a decent yield for the space. Herbs and salads are a great choice. Purple sprouting broccoli and other slow-growing plants that take up a lot of space are usually not great choices.

• The Greek runner bean I mention for the dish ‘big beans’ (gigantes plaki) can be found on the Real Seeds website (scroll down).

• Container grown plants can be susceptible to pests but do much better if kept super healthy. Mark sprays a weak solution of seaweed feed to help plants grow strong and resist pests.

• Microgreens are a great option for windowsill growing, and for people starting out. Mark’s top six microgreens are pea shoots, sunflower, coriander/cilantro, radish, rocket/rucola, and Asian mixed mustards.

• Mark grows herbs such as basil indoors as well as a cardamon plant (Elettaria cardamomum) and lemongrass (just buy stems from the supermarket, root them and plant them up).

• The other veg we mention are good king Henry (Chenopodium bonus-henricus) and Scots lovage (Ligusticum scoticum) which is a smaller species related to the much bigger regular lovage (Levisticum officinale).

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QUESTION OF THE WEEK

Mother.life growlights can be set up in a range of different ways. Photograph: Jane Perrone.

Laura wanted growlight suggestions to buy in the UK. I suggested:

Mother.life PlantSpectrum lights - these are really goof quality lights and they can be arranged in different ways using mounts you can buy from the online store. They are based in Belgium but ship across the world.

Soltech Solutions lights are excellent quality and nice and sturdy.

IKEA Vaxxer bulbs - they are no longer available new but you can pick them up secondhand in places like Facebook Marketplace and eBay.

In general terms try to find lights that have a long warranty/guarantee and have parts that can be repaired/replaced. This may mean paying more, but this way you end up getting something that can last for years and years - and is superior from a sustainability point of you.

You can hear more about growlights in my episode with Leslie Halleck.

I also talk about growlights and sustainability in an edition of my newsletter The Plant Ledger.

Want to ask me a question? Email ontheledgepodcast@gmail.com. The more information you can include, the better - pictures of your plant, details of your location and how long you have had the plant are always useful to help solve your issue.

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HOW TO SUPPORT ON THE LEDGE

Contributions from On The Ledge listeners help to pay for all the things that have made the show possible over the last few years: equipment, travel expenses, editing, admin support and transcription.

Want to make a one-off donation? You can do that through my ko-fi.com page, or via Paypal.

Want to make a regular donation? Join the On The Ledge community on Patreon! Whether you can only spare a dollar or a pound, or want to make a bigger commitment, there’s something for you: see all the tiers and sign up for Patreon here.

• The Crazy Plant Person tier just gives you a warm fuzzy feeling of supporting the show you love.

• The Ledge End tier gives you access to two extra episodes a month, known as An Extra Leaf, as well as ad-free versions of the main podcast on weeks where there’s a paid advertising spot, and access to occasional patron-only Zoom sessions.

• My Superfan tier earns you a personal greeting from me in the mail including a limited edition postcard, as well as ad-free episodes.

If you like the idea of supporting On The Ledge on a regular basis but don't know what Patreon's all about, check out the FAQ here: if you still have questions, leave a comment or email me - ontheledgepodcast@gmail.com. If you're already supporting others via Patreon, just click here to set up your rewards!

If you prefer to support the show in other ways, please do go and rate and review On The Ledge on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher or wherever you listen. It's lovely to read your kind comments, and it really helps new listeners to find the show. You can also tweet or post about the show on social media - use #OnTheLedgePodcast so I’ll pick up on it!

CREDITS

This week's show featured the tracks Roll Jordan Roll by the Joy Drops, The Road We Use To Travel When We Were Kids by Komiku and Dizzy Spells by Josh Woodward.