Episode 277: growing in leca with The Leca Queen

Nora Mutalima aka The Leca Queen.

Subscribe to On The Ledge via Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Player FM, Stitcher, Overcast, RadioPublic and YouTube.

Transcript

Jane Perrone: (ad)

The more you get to know about soil, the more you realise that the health of your soil is absolutely central to success with gardening. And that's where True Leaf Market comes in, because cover crops are a fantastic way to, boost the wellbeing of your soil this autumn. On The Ledge show sponsors True Leaf Market, have been selling seed since 1974. They offer a great selection of cover crop seeds, including their all-purpose garden cover crop mix, which is their most popular cover crop seeds for home gardeners. Check out True Leaf Market's free beginner's guide to cover crops. Just go to trueleafmarket.com and search for cover crop guide. And while you're at it, order your cover crops online now at trueleafmarket.com and with promo code OTL10, you can save $10 on your order of $50 or more. That's trueleafmarket.com and enter OTL10 for $10 off your first order. Check out the show notes at janeperrone.com for a link to that free cover crop guide and full terms and conditions.

Jane Perrone:

Give me an L. L! Give me an E. E! Give me a C. C! Give me an A. A! And what does it spell? leca!. Or maybe leca. Hello and welcome to On The Ledge podcast and this week's show I'm joined by houseplant royalty. Yes, I'm chatting to the Leca Queen all about expanded clay pebbles. I'm trying something new this week so if you want to see a video of Nora and I chatting about leca you can go over to YouTube and you'll see the whole video there. Stick around here if you just want to hear this chat in your ears. The two conversations are entirely similar. The only difference is here on the podcast, I've edited out a few short moments where we've kind of clashed in terms of speaking at the same time and a little bit of chat right at the end. So just to make sure that each chat is appropriate for the different format. If you want to go and look at that, it's on YouTube now and I'll put a link to it in the show notes. And if you're a Patreon subscriber at the Ledge End or Super Fan level, you can head over to Patreon where you'll find a video podcast of an extra leaf where I talk to Nora about moss poles. If you have no idea what Patreon is, it's a crowdfunding platform where you pay a monthly fee for extra stuff. You can also join for free now, or try a free 7 day trial if you want to check it out. All the details in the show notes. But let's assume you've stuck around here rather than heading over to YouTube. Welcome. I'm really excited about this episode because Nora throws down loads of super useful information about using leca as a medium for houseplants, from washing it to nutrients to flushing, all of that stuff is covered in this episode. It's so useful. I learned absolutely loads. And do go and check out the show notes at janeperrone.com where you'll find a full transcript for our chat, which you can read along to, do point out any mistakes you spot, and also useful information about leca. So do go and look at the show notes. I know I always say that, but they are really useful, so they are always worth a look.And thank you to Marmee, who has become a legend, joining my Patreon clan. I have the wheels in motion now for my festive mail out for December, so please start making sure that your postal address is correct if you are a patron, I'll send out details for how to do that. Right, let's get on with my delightful chat with Nora, the Leca Queen.

The Leca Queen:

Hi, hi Jane. Thank you so much for having me on your podcast. I was so excited to get your email. My name is Nora, as you know, and I am also called the Leca Queen online, on YouTube, on wherever you find me. So I grow my plants in leca clay balls. That's my thing, that's my claim to fame.

Jane Perrone:

I love that name! I mean, this is the other thing here just to say straight up. I say ‘leca’. I guess I'm channeling like a Star Wars vibe. I'm thinking of Princess Leia and then adding a C in it. I don't know why, but there we go. I guess it doesn't really matter, does it?

The Leca Queen:

It doesn't matter - clay balls!

Jane Perrone: Clay balls! Exactly! So let's just clear up first of all, because there might be some people listening who are not familiar with this substrate, what exactly is leca slash leca?

The Leca Queen: Well, Leca slash Leca is, it's basically clay balls. So I've got this Philodendron ‘Birkin’ here and it's growing in these balls. And these balls are called leca. And it's an acronym, it's short for Lightweight Expanded Clay Aggregate. So all it is, is just, they get a bunch of clay, put it in a big hot oven, turn it all around and it pops like popcorn and it comes out with lots of holes inside. And that's leca!

Jane Perrone:

I love the popcorn analogy. It is a bit like that. And it's extremely lightweight, I think that's the thing that's fascinating. You think of clay being extremely heavy, but when you pick up a handful of leca, it's really super light, which is very handy for many reasons if you're dragging one of these home from the shops, or getting it through the post. It's very lightweight, which is great. And... Obviously this is your bag, literally your bag of leca. You grow this, all your beautiful plants in this. And I'm very impressed by the results you're getting. I guess we need to talk though about, there must be some sort of drawbacks or are there any drawbacks or what are the, what do you see as the pros and cons of this particular substrate?

The Leca Queen:

There's always drawbacks for anything. And I think it entirely depends on what you're defining as drawbacks, entirely depends on your expectations. I think, you know, one man's, you know, drawback is another man's pro. But the primary good thing, one of the big pros about leca is that it prevents overwatering and underwatering. So when you're growing your plant in leca, you've got the plant sitting in a reservoir, and it's always got that nutrient solution. So you're not just using water, you're using fertilizer and water in there because the leca itself doesn't have any nutrients in it unlike soil. So the plant actually pulls up what it needs at any time. So you're never having an issue of overwatering, which then leads you to not having the problem of a fungus gnats, you know, our buzzy friends that everyone who's got indoor plants knows about. So that's a lovely side effect of using leca, that you just don't have any fungus gnats. But more importantly as well, going back to the fact that you've got water and nutrition available, that plant is constantly feeding. It's constantly got food because one of the number one things that a lot of plant parents forget to do is fertilize their plants. So you'll have someone coming up and saying, oh, my plant's not growing, I've got a problem with my plants, the root. the leaves are turning yellow and you ask the question, when did you last fertilize it? And like, well, I've actually never done it since I bought it, you know, four years ago. So, you know, a plant that's growing in leca is constantly eating and it's just, they grow so well because they've got access to food and nutrition all the time. A drawback though, is that because leca doesn't have nutrients in it, you have to supply that nutrition. So you have to be using, a nutrient that's formulated, especially for plants growing in a semi-hydro or hydroponic setup and you're constantly, you have to sort of learn how to mix it. It can be as difficult or as easy as you want it to be, but that has to happen. So it's just management of the reservoir, which like I said, can be as easy or as difficult as you want it to be, as you make it out to be. But you know, once you get to do something and you get used to doing something, it becomes pretty easy.

Jane Perrone:

I mean I am a real soil based grower, but I am intrigued by this idea I use leca a lot, but I don't use it as a sole substrate So I use it I mulch plants and I get a lot of questions from people when I so show plants on social media They're like, oh is that growing in leca? I'm like ‘no’. But I use it for a mulch. I use it in I mean I do a kind of I use it a lot for a kind of a very basic wick watering system where you've just got a reservoir of leca at the bottom of a cache pot and then a wick going through into the soil and that's kind of my way of using it. But the one thing that kind of puts me off and I think this is kind of like uh for me it would be one of those things where I would, I just need to get over myself and learn it, is getting the plants out of the soil and into the leca and that process of like getting all the soil off. I am not a meticulous person. I am a slapdash person. Like I just can’t… So I, the care and attention to detail that would be required scares me a little bit. But tell me about your process if you buy a plant from the store and you want to get it into leca. How does that work and does it ever go completely pear-shaped?

The Leca Queen:

Well, everything always goes pear shaped sometimes!

The Leca Queen:

But when I get my plant from the store, so whenever I buy a new plant, first things first is if I don't have time to put it straight into leca, it goes and lives in my garage. It does not come in the house because I will not have that fungus gnat-infested soil coming into the house. That's the first thing. Yeah, so when I've got the time, I get my plant and I pretty much take it out of the soil and I give it a wash. So I'm like you. I’m not as meticulous as people think and I'm quite rough as well so I just get my plant out of the pot and I like to use my hose - that's the easiest way I find to get the soil off so I put it on like the sort of blast setting and I just blast away at the roots and that's it that's all there is but I do have to say that I think there is a bit of a misconception about how clean the roots need to be and how pristine they need to be. They don't need to be as pearly white as most people think. The idea is to get most, as much of the organic matter off as you can. You're not getting off every single speck. And if you can get it as clean as you can, that's fine. You just put it in the leca and go through the process of transition. And once you've got the plant in that leca, you are washing off the letter, the post is called flushing. And with that flushing, all that stuff that was left on is going to come off anyway. So it's not really a deal breaker getting them so pristine.

Jane Perrone:

And I'm thinking about plants in my collection that could work for this setup. I'm thinking Hoyas, Begonias are all going to be good in this, is there anything that you'd say, oh actually don't put that in leca, that's better off in soil, or is it really, does it work for anything?

The Leca Queen:

Ah look, you're asking the wrong person that question! Largely because my thing is just any and every plant I'm putting in leca and the reason I say that is because I see it's I don't see it as leca is what's stopping the plant from growing well in the medium, it's an issue of what I'm doing with the reservoir and that's where the problem comes. So when you've got a plant like a cactus for example I mean obviously we all know they you can't put that and put it in a pot of water like we do with leca plants. It's probably not going to be too happy. It's probably going to explode at some point. I don't know.

Jane Perrone:

Yeah, that's a good bet.

The Leca Queen:

But you know, then you start to think, well, what can I do to actually get this plant to live in this medium? So either you're putting a very, very shallow reservoir and it's literally only got like a millimeter of water, or you're using what people like to call the shower method. So you actually don't have a reservoir in there at all. So you're treating that plant like a plant in soil and you just, you know, take it to the sink and you know, put the nutrient solution through, it drains out, and that's it, there's nothing left. The only moisture that's in there is what's in the leca. And in that way, people have succeeded. So I don't have a plant that I think ‘this can't work in leca’, my ethos is, well, what can I do to make this work in leca.

Jane Perrone:

Absolutely, absolutely. So you're talking about this reservoir - just paint a picture for us of how the pot looks How how does the what's the what's the scenario in terms of… Because not everyone will have actually seen a pot a plant set up in this way.

The Leca Queen:

That's right. So I'll bring back my ‘Birkin’ again. So this is my plant that's living in a nursery pot and in that nursery pot sits the leca and sits the plant. And that nursery pot does have holes in it. It's just like a normal pot, like a normal pot you use for your soil plant. But what's different in leca is you're putting this nursery pot in what we're calling a cache pot. And the cache pot is basically a pot that doesn't have a hole in it. So it's able to hold your nutrient. So this one over here is the cache pot. I want to pick that up. You can see that liquid in there and that is my nutrient solution in there. So, and the cache pot can be anything. It doesn't matter. It can be fancy. It can be my cache pots are these are just plain pot liners and I just cover them up and that seat, it can be anything.

Jane Perrone:

One thing I want to know though is are you make do the pots come with those holes In them or are you making those holes yourself?

The Leca Queen:

I kind of make additional holes. So if you're getting a normal nursery pot like the one you put a soil plant in, it will have the holes at the bottom, right? But I like to make the holes in the sides as well, just to give that additional ventilation through the roots and through the leca. I know a lot of people who don't, and I personally actually have some plants that don't have that additional ventilation, but I like to do it because it makes sense to me that the more air, the better off the plant is. So yeah, personal preference, I guess.

Jane Perrone:

The thing I'm thinking of is when I made my kids a woodlouse enclosure and I made, like, I just used a hot piece of metal, I heated up on the stove to make that hole. Is that the kind of thing you can do?

The Leca Queen:

You can do that, but a better way is to just get a soldering iron.

Jane Perrone:

Ah, okay. Yeah.

The Leca Queen:

Yeah - soldering irons are relatively inexpensive and you've just got it there. It'll give you the heat exactly where you want it to be. You're not standing there wasting electricity or whatever, trying to get that hot thingy hot and this is yeah. Nightmare.

Jane Perrone:

Love it. Okay, so that's a really that's a really useful thing to have an image of. Tell me about the nutrient solution we're talking about here. Can we be using any houseplant fertilizer we've got hanging around, or do we need to buy something specific?

The Leca Queen:

We do need to buy something specific. So when you're growing your plants in leca, it's growing it in leca, leca is just a medium. The whole thing of growing plants in that way is semi-hydroponics because it is living in a water solution, hence the hydroponics thing. What's different about growing a plant in leca versus growing a plant in soil is that when a plant is in soil, the soil itself has a biome. There's all sorts of stuff in there. You've got all those rich microbes and all those things in there such that they're breaking down all the things that are in the soil, they're breaking down your fertilizer into a state that your plant can actually absorb. Now, when you're growing your plant in leca, none of that is there. Leca is just completely, it's almost sterile before you actually use it. There's nothing there, there's no microbes, there's nothing. So when you get the fertilizer, for example, organic fertilizer, sea, kelp or whatever, stuff that people love to use for. soil plants, right? You get that because it's great for the plant. You put that in with a plant that's growing in leca. There's nothing to actually break down that nutrient into the ionic states that the plant can absorb it. So it's just going to sit there and it's not going to absorb it. And the problem with doing that, and I hear this a lot, a lot of people ask me, I put my plant in leca and it died. And the first thing I asked them is what fertilizer did you use? I just used the one I had in the house. Well, that right there was the problem because you thought you fed your plant because you gave it that nutrient solution, but the plant wasn't able to take it up because it was, it's almost like it was locked. The gate was locked. The plant couldn't access the food. It could see the food beyond the gate. It couldn't access it. And that was the end of that. So your plant will struggle. So using a nutrient or a fertilizer that's been formulated for a plant growing in a water environment or a hydroponic environment is definitely the way to go.

Jane Perrone:

This is not the BBC, we can promote products. Do you have a particular brand that you use for your nutrients or is it just whatever you can get your hands on?

The Leca Queen:

Personally, I'm particularly partial to a product called Foliage Focus and it's made by Growth Technology here in Australia It's an Australian company based in Perth, which is great, so we're supporting Australian business, and the reason I love this particular nutrient is it's a single bottle So one of the things that a lot of people will have heard of and I was in that exact same boat when I started was oh my gosh, if you're using leca nutrients, you need to mix stuff and the mixing of stuff is just very intimidating for a lot of people. But you can find a nutrient solution that is just a single bottle. So in Australia, most of us have Foliage Focus that's easily available. Places like the United States have got brands like Super Thrive, Dynagro, Foliage Pro, they are available. If you can get a single bottle, fantastic. That makes things easier. But there are lots of others that maybe it's a... two bottle or three bottle thing, but, and the key is to just follow the instructions on the bottle and mix it that way.

Jane Perrone:

Yeah, I'm like simplicity. Please just give me the single bottle because I'm going to lose one of those bottles - I'm going to mislay it - forget - the label’s going to rub off. I just don't need that in my life.

The Leca Queen:

That is exactly right. And in fact, when I started dabbling into growing my plants in leca, I already had foliage focus because I was using it for my plants in soil. And then when I found out that I could use that for my plants in leca, I was like, oh my gosh, fantastic. Because that was the only thing that was stopping me. The finding mixing six bottles was just like, ugh.

Jane Perrone: (ad)

This episode is sponsored by Better Help. Is your brain going into overdrive the minute your head hits the pillow? Lack of sleep can really impact on your day, your mood, your, physical and mental health, so it's time to do something about it. But what can you do. Therapy can be great at helping you work through the kinds of issues that are causing your brain to keep you awake at night. But finding time to organise therapy can be really tricky. But if you have been putting it off, I'd suggest you give BetterHelp a try. BetterHelp make therapy simple, because it's entirely online, so it's very convenient. You can book the sessions at times to suit you, just fill out a short questionnaire and BetterHelp will match you with a licensed therapist and you can change your therapist at any time for no additional cost. Make your brain your friend with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/otl today, to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H E L P dot com forward slash O T L.

Jane Perrone:

One other thing that I'm sort of slightly scared about is, and maybe you've got a tip for me also for dealing with kind of used leca. So say you want to upgrade a plant, or in my case, I've got stuff that's been in reservoirs. And like, I'm talking about leca that's been exposed to situations where there's been root mealybugs, which regular listeners will know I've been struggling with. I'm presuming that leca is also a solution to that problem, by the way, which is...

The Leca Queen:

Possibly.

Jane Perrone:

Given me much trauma, much trauma. Anyway, um, so I've got this leca that's kind of compromised in a quite a substantial way and I'm terrified of using it again because I know that there's lots of nooks and crannies where little root mealybugs could be dwelling.

Jane Perrone:

I don't want to be boiling this stuff on the stove. I'm never going to go down that route.

The Leca Queen:

Why don't you want to boil it on the stove? Like seriously though?

Jane Perrone:

I mean my children already think I'm mad,m if they come in and go what's for tea and I'm like that's a pot of leca cooking on the stove. They're just going to think I've lost it entirely. But is there anything else I can use that will kind of kill everything, sterilize it get it back to a good state?

The Leca Queen:

I mean you could use bleach, you could use hydrogen peroxide, but honestly boiling leca is just the easiest way because can you imagine you've got this big tub of leca, righti and you've got your big tub of bleach. I don't know about you but personally I'm scared of bleach. I very rarely like to go in there because every time I touch bleach, I know my clothes are going to get ruined. I don't know how but I always…

Jane Perrone:

The random bleach mark!

The Leca Queen:

Exactly. I'm like, what? How? When? Nothing.

The Leca Queen:

So I don't deal with bleach because it's just scary. But the thing as well with bleach, if you do use bleach, you have to make sure that you really rinse that leca off very, very well because of course then you'll have that bleach in with your plant when you use it. But yeah, I would encourage you to try boiling.

Jane Perrone:

My children are going to be, I can imagine the comments now. And how long do I have to boil it for? Is it just a couple of minutes? How long will it take for everything to kind of die off?

The Leca Queen:

Well, look, I want to tell you boil it for 10 minutes on your right, but I don't know. I've never actually conducted a scientific experiment to be able to tell you and I've never seen a paper on that. So this is completely anecdotal.

The Leca Queen:

I boil my leca until I remember I'm boiling leca and then I was like, oh, oh.

Jane Perrone:

I mean, I'm feeling so much sisterhood here to you. Obviously you have children as well. Like, I don't think people, like, this is the scenario, isn't it? It's like, oh yeah, I put that pan on the stove half an hour ago.

The Leca Queen:

I'll tell you one other thing just to make it worse. Sometimes I'm silly because I'll put my leca on because I've got my two big leca pots, right? So I've got special pots for my leca. So that's another thing, people. I am not boiling my leca in pots I use for food.

Jane Perrone:

Wise, very wise.

The Leca Queen:

Yeah, so I put it on and I make sure I put a lot of water in there because I know I'm going to forget, right? So it'll be there for like 30 minutes. I'm just sitting doing my work. I'm sat at my computer. My kitchen is really close by so I can hear it. And I'll be sitting there thinking, what's that popping? What's that popping?

Jane Perrone:

I'm glad it's not just me, it's great comfort for me to know that I'm not alone in this struggle.

The Leca Queen:

No you’re not.

Jane Perrone: Ok that’s good. You get the fresh bag of leca from the shop, do you need to do anything to that before you're putting it in with your plants?

The Leca Queen:

Most definitely, most definitely. You must never put your plant in leca that's just come straight out of the bag without adequately preparing it first. So obviously when you take it straight out of the bag, it's really, really dirty, very dirty. And depending on the brand of leca that you've got, can you imagine? I mean, leca's basically dirt, right? And they just get it from the rotary kiln and they bag it. They've got all that dirt in there and then it's been rubbing against each other. all that clay is just everywhere. So the first step is just to just wash it off, wash it off until that water runs clear. And ideally, if you can do this outside better, because we don't quite know whether that dust actually affects your plumbing or not. And we don't want to find out. We suspected that it might, don't know.

Jane Perrone:

Yeah, very wise. Yeah, I always do it. I've got a colander of like a plastic, um, I don't know, an old salad spinner or something that I've washed mine. I have to say I'm a bit like, as we were saying before, I'm a bit slapdash. I need to get better at doing this. You know, when I'm using it as a mulch, I often, I don't bother to wash it, but I need to get better at doing that, clearly.

The Leca Queen:

You’re using it in a different way, I think. So I don't think you need to be as anal about cleaning it as you do if you're using it in growing plants specifically for semi-hydro, because there are implications to not cleaning your leca adequately. So after you've given it a wash, ideally, ideally you want to let it soak in fresh clean water for at least 24 hours. That's just like the basic. Like if that's all you wanna do, just get your leca, wash it, let it soak for 24 hours and that's fine. And what that does is all the minerals and all that gunk that's inside the leca actually is pushed out. And you actually notice that water that you soaked it in actually gets dirtier. And for those who are a bit more technically minded, if you're looking at the total dissolved solids, so if you get your water, right, if you get fresh water. And in Melbourne, our water is excellent. So our total dissolved solids is 30 parts per million, right?

Jane Perrone:

That’s great!

The Leca Queen:

I know, right? So I've got my water and I've got my leca that I've just washed that straight out of the bag, right? So I've got my 30 parts per million. When I soak my leca in there for 24 hours, that goes up to 300 or something parts per million. And what that's telling you, where's all that stuff coming from? It's coming from inside that leca. So, you can have a process where you're soaking your leca three, four times. And if you've got some really precious plants that you have, you can soak it four or five times, even soak it in the nutrient solution to get it as clean as you can. But what that also does is you end up not having to flush as much because once you've got your leca growing, then your plant growing, sometimes you have this white substance on top of the leca. And that's a lot of people call that mineral deposits or salts is really called the efflorescence. So you've got the efflorescence sitting at the top. But if you've washed and soaked your leca thoroughly at the start, you won't get as much of that at the top. So you end up doing that less. So there's a lot to be said for soaking your leca adequately.

Jane Perrone:

I'm very tempted by this. I mean, I think what I'm going to do personally is start off with something that doesn't involve me having to wash any roots. So I was watching your African violet video and thinking about taking some African violet babies and putting them in hydro as a rooting thing. And then I think that might be where I begin. I love the idea of growing African violets in Leca because actually in soil they're not the ease, I think they're, you know, actually they might do a lot better in leca actually. I think they're one of those plants that people grow really badly.

The Leca Queen:

Oh yeah, 100%. They do so much better in leca because I've, I've grown Afro. I've always loved African violence from when I was a little girl. I've always grown African violence and compared to the success I'm having with my violets now, it's absolutely insane. I actually, a few months ago, I had my African violets were stalking, you know, they had that long goose neck. So I've actually chopped them up and put them straight into the leca. And I was looking at them today. And - thriving.

Jane Perrone:

Wow, that's really great to hear. I wonder if I transferred completely to leca whether I'd miss soil. I'm sure I wouldn't miss the mess of soil. That I can tell you. I had these shoots last week and I was just like I hoovered and then we moved some plots around and I needed to hoover again because I had just soil everywhere. It’s just a constant battle plus the fungus gnats. So I am leaning towards this method. And I need to dip my toe into it and I've resisted for quite a long time. I do love the kind of soil Microorganisms, kind of food web sort of thing. But on the other hand, I don't love mealy bugs - root mealy bugs specifically. And I think you know, I can see why this would work really well So I'm I mean extremely intrigued are there any other questions that people often have for you when they comment on your videos? They're just like ‘this is my crisis. How can you help me’?

The Leca Queen:

Usually the first, well, crisis, not really so much of it's really what plants, what plants grow in leca is or what plants can I start with to get me on that path so I can become a lot more confident with it because I mean, like you say, you just need to dip your toe into something until you actually do it. You'll actually never know how to do it until you actually do it. So I always tell them definitely Hoyas are a fantastic. Begonias love it, especially the cane bagonias. I've got a Begonia ‘White Ice’ that is just, it's going insane. Spider plants, surprisingly, they're absolutely thriving. Like I throw, I've got spider plants that I just got. So I don't, I'm just giving away spider plants because I've got spider plants everywhere. So yeah. And then I think as well, I mean, the nutrient solution, we talked about that before, just getting a handle on how to manage a reservoir, and also how to clean the leca. There's lots of conflicting information out there about whether it's actually necessary to clean the leca at all. A lot of people just go like, I don't even soak my leca, or maybe I'll soak it for an hour and that's fine. And not really understanding why the soaking is important.

Jane Perrone:

Going back to your reservoir example, how far up the pot, the inner pot, should that reservoir be? Does it depend on the plant or the time of you let that run down and then top it up or?

The Leca Queen:

It very much depends on the plant. So it depends on the plant and it depends on the kind of setup that you're doing. So there's various ways you can actually have your plants sitting. You can have what I do is called the submerged method. So my nursery pot is sitting right at the bottom of the cache pot and is in direct contact with the nutrient solution. But you could also have your plant with a wick setup. So you've got the plant sat at the top the reservoir, so your leca is not in direct contact. And those two things, the way you've set up your reservoir kind of depends how you manage it and how much nutrient or water your plant has access to. So in the submerged setup that I use, when I just put my plant into leca, you don't want that reservoir to touch the roots at all. So I like to sort of tell people, look, you're potting your plant up, you know, about a third of the way of the nursery pot. So you want to make sure your reservoir is below that third. But of course, once your plant starts to grow and it starts to love that leca, those roots will start to grow into the reservoir. And invariably, that's OK, because those roots are actually used to being in that environment. Whereas if you got your roots on day one that have just been used to living in soil and you just whack them in that, they're going to rot for sure. So yeah, that's a consideration. talking about whether I let it run dry or not. Ideally, no. In practice, yes. I mean, because sometimes I just can't get to everyone, but that's where I think using the submerged method helps because if my reservoir runs dry, that leca is still a little bit wet on the inside because it's actually been sitting in that nutrient solution. So, and when I say I've let it run dry, maybe you're talking about a day or two or something. You're not talking about a week or that would be a bit much because then your plant will actually, those roots will actually start to rot as well. So you can have a wet rot and a dry rot. So it's just that management of the reservoir.

Jane Perrone:

Yeah, that totally makes sense. And what about repotting? Is it the same as a soil plant in that you're looking for signs of kind of like root congestion on the outside of the root ball, and then you're going to upgrade it to a bigger pot with more leca in it?

The Leca Queen:

Yes, now it is definitely as well. If of course there's roots everywhere, especially with monstera, you just tend to have roots everywhere. And I've, oh, yes. I did a video on my Calathea orbifolia. And this calathea, my Calathea orbifolia is legendary, if I do say so myself. She's gorgeous. She's massive. And I realized that she wasn't growing as well as she was before and started to get yellowing. of the edges of the leaves. And I thought there's something up here. I picked it up and I saw that it was root bound. And at that point I repotted and the plant was fine. So it is similar in the way that you can sort of tell that there's something going on with the roots and then you repot. But the thing I love about, the other thing I love about growing in Leca is that when you're repotting a plant that's grown in leca, you're not being as... fuss about pot size as you would be when you're growing a plant in soil. So when you're growing a plant in soil, the take home is you only, you know, go pot size up. You don't go up too big because then you risk root rot depending on how you water. But with a plant in leca, you know, you can just like, you know what, I'm going to give you your forever pot because I can't keep doing this every three months. And it's fine because of the reservoir and because of the way the leca works. There's no problem. or risk of overwatering. So that doesn't even, it's not an issue.

Jane Perrone:

I mean, that right there might have just sold it for me that I don't have to do less replanting. That sounds, that sounds epic. Now we've got to talk about aroids because you've got a lovely backdrop of aroids behind you. And I think you're well known for having beautiful plants that are obviously thriving in leca. Tell me about aroids in leca. What's the, what's the deal there? Does it, how do you, you must have to have some really long moss poles I'm guessing to make this these beautiful thriving plants stand up?

The Leca Queen:

Yeah, yeah, I'm also kind of the crazy moss pole lady. Um, yeah, I got some pretty long ones. This one back there, they were hat, my finger is, that's my Epipremnum golden ivy. That's really, she actually started off in soil and I got her to that state when she was in soil and got all the way to the top of the moss pole, two meter high, and I chopped it and I put the top part in l eca because... I was like, yeah, no, I'm not doing soil anymore. So I put the top part in leca and that's it there. If I could show you, she's gotten all the way past the moss pole and is now crawling across the ceiling. And every time I look at it, I'm thinking, I really need to do something about that. So it's quite problematic. So yeah, I mean, if growing on moss poles, they're great. They grow really well in their car. They grow really well on the moss poles. It's just, it's ended up being the same really as though you're growing a plant on a moss pole in soil.

Jane Perrone:

Aroids still are just so popular that lots of people are going to be drawn into your account seeing those beautiful aroids. I'm just thinking about my ‘Thai constellation’ and thinking, it's such a pain to repot that plant. If I could, like, reduce the amount of time I have to repot that and put it into leca, that would be amazing, but I'm kind of almost scared to take it out. It's in a big terracotta pot right now.

The Leca Queen:

Yeah.

Jane Perrone:

I'm almost scared to take it out of there because I'm just I just I nearly gave myself a hernia the last time I had to get the roots out of that pot of the previous pot because it was so stuck in there and like the roots were so congested I'm just like argh - I mean the only other thing I would say that I could have slightly scared about is now I think you probably living in Australia I suspect you may have a little bit more space than I do. I’m slightly worried that my plot I mean this is the weirdest thing to say ever - I'm slightly worried that my plants will grow too wel.

The Leca Queen:

I knew you'd say that.

Jane Perrone:

Hoyas, especially Hoyas because you know I'm one of those Hoyas people who like get Hoyas cuttings and it's like a two leaf cutting you're like oh isn't this nice and then I mean even in soil I've got a Hoya that I call the beast which is uh Hoya um is it Villosa - I can't remember - anyway and I call it the beast - I'm just like how if this is what it's like in soil is am I setting myself up for like really a big jungle if they go into this beautiful leca and thrive?

The Leca Queen:

Yeah, yeah, you are, you are. It's essentially what it is, and that's the beauty. Well, I mean, for you, not really, but that's the beauty of growing a plant in leca. I always call it allowing your plant to reach its true potential.

The Leca Queen:

if you've got all the other factors at play, light and all that stuff, if you've got that right, I mean, it's got nothing to do but grow.

Jane Perrone:

Yeah, absolutely. One other thing, I steer away from ferns because I am a fern. I've not had, you know, I know how to look after a fern but I just don't have the darn time for that kind of watering regime, right?

Jane Perrone:

But if I put a fern into hydro, is that going to, into, into leca, is that going to, if I put a fern into leca, is that going to solve my problem here in that I don't need to worry about it on a daily basis and it's going to have that reservoir.

The Leca Queen:

What fern are we talking?

Jane Perrone:

I don't know, like I'm thinking of everyone's nemesis, the maidenhair fern. Is that, is that, I mean, is that doable?

The Leca Queen:

Yeah. You want me to show you a maiden hair fern?

Jane Perrone:

Yeah, come on, let's see, let's have this, let's see this. It's watching me now. I mean, this is just really bad for my, really bad for my, oh yeah, look at that, nice.

The Leca Queen:

Yeah.

Jane Perrone: Very beautiful.

The Leca Queen:

Yeah, she's got a few issues. I've had her out. So she hasn't been as humid. So there are a few crispy things, but I transitioned her from soil to leda a few months ago. I think that went really well. Yeah.

Jane Perrone:

I mean, I don't need any more plant families to collect, quite frankly, but you know. Now, is there anything else about leca that we haven't mentioned about? Maybe you could just tell us about this flushing process. How often do we have to do that? And is it, you know, presumably that's pretty vital, because you're working with the nutrient solution, avoiding too much nutrient buildup or whatever.

The Leca Queen:

Remember what I said about making it as difficult or as easy as you want it to be? That is my philosophy. My philosophy of growing plants is not necessarily following a manual or following a regime. It's about making plant care work for you and work for your plants. So people tell people to flush every fortnight, every two weeks. I know people who've never flushed their plants. I flush my plants when I have the time to flush my plants. Maybe I'll be like, oh, okay, you've got a lot of stuff, white stuff, maybe I should flush you. But I have so many plants. I just don't, I don't have the capacity to go and flush everyone every two weeks. I probably have over 300 plants. So is it good to flush your plants regularly? Yes, it's very highly recommended. Can you get away with not flushing your plants regularly? Definitely. Would your plants grow better if you flushed your plants more? Maybe. So, you know, that's the answer I always give people. Honestly, yes, you should flush. Yes, yes, we know why you should flush. But, you know, it's not the end of the world.

Jane Perrone:

That presumably that's just taking it out of the cache pot and letting lots of water run through so that anything that's in there gets the chance to be released and removed?

The Leca Queen:

Exactly. You clean out your cache pot, you know, just get it nice and clean, put some fresh solution and your plants just feel like, oh my gosh, I'm just at a spa day. It's feeling amazing.

Jane Perrone:

Lovely. Brilliant. Well, let's get on to our quick fire round. I'm going to ask you five questions which you have not been prepared for. So, you know, I want honest answers, quick gut reactions to these.

Jane Perrone:

Okay, let's go. Okay, so your first one is, what is your plantagonist? The one plant that really... Either you absolutely hate and you just, there's no rationale to it but you hate it, or you just can't get along with.

The Leca Queen:

Maidenhair fern, but also Alocasia. Love-hate relationship...

Jane Perrone:

Next question. You have the opportunity to have a plant species named after you or maybe a cultivar. You know, I don't know what it's going to be. What is going to be the Nora plant or the Leca queen plant that you're going to have named after you?

The Leca Queen:

It's gotta be a Hoya!

Jane Perrone:

Yes! A good answer. Yeah.

The Leca Queen:

Yeah.

Jane Perrone:

And would it be like a delicate-leaved one or would it..?

The Leca Queen:

It’s gotta be a splashy hoya!

Jane Perrone:

Beautiful, beautiful.

Jane Perrone:

Okay. Okay, and you're off to your desert island. You're going to your desert island and you can take only three plants with you. Either plants that you have or plants that you'd like to have. What are those plants going to be?

The Leca Queen:

I'll take a Hoya, I'll take a Golden Ivy Epipremnum, and I'll take a Monstera deliciosa, the OG plant.

Jane Perrone:

Sounds like you've thought this through already. I mean, you’ve got this all worked out.

The Leca Queen:

I think they're like the plants they're like the most basic the most gorgeous the most I mean if you and they're so easy as well you know

Jane Perrone:

Excellent and let's talk plant goals. You've got more than 300 plants, but there must be something that's still on your wishlist that you do not yet have. What is that plant?

The Leca Queen:

funny enough, I actually don't have a wishlist anymore. I used to, but I think I have evolved so much with my plants and what I do with my plants. I'm now at a point where I get a plant because it's got a job to do. So I'll say, right, I wanna make a video about how I transition a big plant. I wanna make a video about philodendron ‘Birkin;. I spent forever looking for this 'Birkin' because I needed a... big one. I wanted to show people how you can move a big one. So, so yeah, so having said that, that's how I look for my plant have jobs.

Jane Perrone:

I totally understand what you're saying. I sometimes when I give talks, I have my stunt plants that I take along with me that are going to get a little bit beaten up on the way, but they're going to be okay.

The Leca Queen:

Yes!

Jane Perrone:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Okay, and the last one, looking forward to that magical day when you can retire and your plants can just take center stage. I want you to set the scene of your retirement. How is your plant setup going to change? What's going to be in there? I mean money no object here. You know, are we talking a thousand foot glasshouse? Are we talking? I don't know. What how does how's it going to look?

The Leca Queen:

I have the perfect answer and I'll start off with there's a there's a like a meme type thing that's gone around the internet it's been there for ages how you've got someone who's built a new house and you've got the house and you've got the do you know that one? Yeah, so I would have a massive greenhouse so I wouldn't I would only have Statement plants in the house only statement plants. So you live there because you're a pretty type thing, you know bird of paradise, big monstera, statement plants. Everyone else is going in the greenhouse And this greenhouse is going to have the sun shade It's going to have all the lights. It's going to have heating. It's going to have cooling, it's going to have the mister in there, it's also going to have a sink because I do semi-hydro, I need a sink, I use water all the time, it's going to have shelving and more importantly it's going to have a sitting area. I'm going to have my lovely blue chair or whatever chair and I'll be able to sit in there like it's a sunroom.

Jane Perrone:

That's a beautiful scenario. Although if you're anything like me, are you ever going to sit? Or maybe when you retired.

The Leca Queen:

I mean yes, I will be retired,

Jane Perrone:

From watching your videos, I bet you don't sit in that chair very much.

The Leca Queen:

I never sit in the chair.

Jane Perrone:

It's like you sit down for two seconds, either a child's calling you, or you're like, you suddenly see a plant that needs, oh, I need to do that, hang on, up you get, yeah.

The Leca Queen:

What suddenly all the plants always and that's the thing though it's I do want to do a thing where - these are the things I wish I knew before I started getting into plants how they just completely take over your life and there's just they're like children there's just always stuff needing to do and you're repotting, picking up dead leaves, you know, -it’s just stuff there's always stuff to do.

Jane Perrone:

Yeah, that's right. I'd much rather do house plant housework than normal housework though,

The Leca Queen:

I'm with you there, I'm with you there, I agree. It's so much more fun.

Jane Perrone:

Well, it's been a real pleasure to talk to you, Nora. I've had so much fun and I've learned loads about leca and I'm now sort of like, yeah, I think I might be on a journey here with this and I’m going to definitely give it a go. I’m going to put those African violets and see how I get on. And I'm looking at your plants, I can only think that the results are going to be amazing. So thank you so much for joining me.

The Leca Queen:

They definitely will be. And thank you so much for having me. It's been wonderful.

Jane Perrone:

Thankyou so much to Norathe Leca Queen for her wonderful presence on the show this week and you can find out more about Nora and her social media channels in the show notes at janeperrone.com and if you're a Patreon subscriber at the Ledge End or Superfan level head on over to Patreon, the app or the platform where you'll find An Extra Leaf Number 119 where I talk all things moss poles with Nora. That's all for this week's show. Thank you so much for listening - and advance warning, there will be a bonus episode for Halloween next week. A spooky, murderous episode of the show. So tune into that next Friday. Cannot wait. Have a fantastic week with your plants. Bye! The music you heard in this episode was Roll Jordan Roll by The Joy Drops, The Road We Used To Travel When We Were Kids by Komiku, and Whistle by Benjamin Banger. The ad music was Part VIII by Jahzzar. All tracks are licensed under Creative Commons. Visit the show notes for details.

I am joined by The Leca Queen Nora Mutalima to discuss all things leca - find out how to grow houseplants in this soilless medium, from prep to feeding!

If you’d prefer to watch my interview with Nora as a video, check out my YouTube channel for a slightly longer version. Patreon subscribers at the Ledge End and Superfan level can watch a bonus video with Nora discussing moss poles in An Extra Leaf 119.

This week’s guest

Nora Mutalima aka The Leca Queen is based in Melbourne, Australia and spreads her expertise in all things leca via her YouTube channel and Instagram account. You’ll find more useful links for Nora on her Linktree.

Chapters
0:01:38 Introducing Houseplant Royalty: The Leca Queen
0:04:08 Useful Information and Transcript for leca as a houseplant medium
0:06:26 Pros and cons of using leca as a substrate
0:09:03 Concerns about transitioning plants from soil to leca
0:24:04 Proper preparation of fresh leca before using with plants
0:33:00 Repotting in leca and pot size flexibility
0:35:22 Thriving aroids on moss poles in leca
0:39:12 Nora’s love-hate elationship with the maidenhair fern
0:41:51 Quickfire round: Nora's plantagonist and desert island plants

Read these notes as you listen…

• Leca is a soilless substrate and it’s an acronym, short for Lightweight Expanded Clay Aggregate. If you’ve never come across leca before, Nora’s beginners’ video is worth a look.

• When you grow plants in leca, this is called semi-hydroponics. Leca contains no nutrients so you have to add those nutrients in the form of a specialised feed - Nora uses Growth Technology’s Foliage Focus. Nora’s video on nutrients and pH is here.

• Leca needs cleaning before it is used as a substrate for plants by being thoroughly soaked in water, then rinsed. Nora advises doing this outside to prevent the risk of blocked drains. Nora’s video on how to do this is here.

• Effloresence is the white stuff that can build up on the surface of leca when used as a substrate - caused by mineral salts. Flushing pots with clean water helps to reduce this, as does cleaning leca thoroughly before use.

• There are various ways of using leca as a substrate - Nora uses the submerged pot method. With this method, the nursery pot is sitting right at the bottom of the cache pot and is in direct contact with the nutrient solution: but the roots themselves start out in the top two thirds of the leca, so they do not start out in contact with the reservoir when first potted.

• Other growers use a wick setup where the plant is sat at the top of the reservoir so the leca is not in direct contact with it, but connected by a piece of wick. But you could also have your plant with a wick setup.

---

Order your copy now! It’s now out in the UK in all good bookshops and will be released in the US via Abrams Books on October 24 2023.

Houseplant Gardener in a Box is now out worldwide!

Grow happy, healthy houseplants with the help of these simple, illustrated cards. The 60 informative cards, illustrated by artist Cody Bond, and 32-page book packaged in a giftable box.

I answer hundreds of questions, including: What sort of plants love a bathroom? How can you bring an orchid back into flower? What needs regular watering, and what doesn’t mind if you forget? What can you put on a sunny windowsill, and what will send foliage tumbling attractively from a shelf? Drawing on years of experience and research, her cards provide sensible, practical, and inspiring advice. The accompanying book will guide you through the process of selecting plants, and Cody Bond’s beautiful illustrations will inspire you along the way. Order your copy now from all good bookstores (and lots of plant shops too!)

---

This week’s sponsors

Better Help

Have you ever had that scenario where you're so tired, but you're lying in bed, and your brain just won't shut up? Or you're just about to go into a very important work meeting, and something just keeps on niggling at you, and you can't concentrate? One thing I have found extremely helpful is therapy. But how do you find the time for that? Better Help makes therapy flexible. It’s entirely online, so you can schedule sessions with your therapist to suit your own schedule. You just need to fill out a few questions online to get started. You’re matched with a licenced therapist and you can switch therapists at any time, for any reason, for no additional charge. Make your brain your friend, with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/otl today to get 10% off your first month.

TRUE LEAF MARKET

If you’re looking for a thrifty way to boost the health of the soil in your garden, cover crops are the answer. Thanks to On The Ledge episode sponsors True Leaf Market you can rehab your soil the same way farmers do - by growing cover crops. True Leaf Market have been sellers of Heirloom and Organic garden seeds since 1974, and they offer a great selection of cover crop seeds, including their all-purpose garden cover crop mix, their most popular cover crop seeds for home gardeners. To get a FREE PDF of true Leaf Market’s beginners guide to growing cover crops visit trueleafmarket.com.

Order your cover crops online now at TrueLeafMarket.com, use promo code OTL10 to save $10 on your first order of $50 or more. 

---

HOW TO SUPPORT ON THE LEDGE

Contributions from On The Ledge listeners help to pay for all the things that have made the show possible over the last few years: equipment, travel expenses, editing, admin support and transcription.

Want to make a one-off donation? You can do that through my ko-fi.com page, or via Paypal.

Want to make a regular donation? Join the On The Ledge community on Patreon! Whether you can only spare a dollar or a pound, or want to make a bigger commitment, there’s something for you: see all the tiers and sign up for Patreon here.

NEW! You can now join my Patreon as a free member or take out a seven-day free trial of my Ledge End tier. Visit my Patreon page for details.

• The Crazy Plant Person tier just gives you a warm fuzzy feeling of supporting the show you love.

• The Ledge End tier gives you access to one extra episode a month, known as An Extra Leaf, as well as ad-free versions of the main podcast and access to occasional patron-only Zoom sessions.

• My Superfan tier earns you a personal greeting from me in the mail including a limited edition postcard, as well as ad-free episodes.

If you like the idea of supporting On The Ledge on a regular basis but don't know what Patreon's all about, check out the FAQ here: if you still have questions, leave a comment or email me - ontheledgepodcast@gmail.com. If you're already supporting others via Patreon, just click here to set up your rewards!

If you prefer to support the show in other ways, please do go and rate and review On The Ledge on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher or wherever you listen. It's lovely to read your kind comments, and it really helps new listeners to find the show. You can also tweet or post about the show on social media - use #OnTheLedgePodcast so I’ll pick up on it!

CREDITS

This week's show featured the tracks Roll Jordan Roll by the Joy Drops, The Road We Use To Travel When We Were Kids by Komiku and Whistle by BenJamin Banger (@benjaminbanger on Insta; website benjaminbanger.com). The ad music is Part VIII by Jahzzar.